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Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

  • 1.  Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-24-2023 15:04
      |   view attached

    If your head is still spinning on how to cost and costing challenges - read the attached. had to print the article because I could not post the link 

    Restrictions on the Admissibility of Past and Future Medical Bills as Evidence at Trial

    HB 837's language notably modifies the collateral source rule to limit the introduction of evidence for medical damages at trial. If the bill is signed into law, evidence offered to prove the amount of damages for past or future medical treatment at trial generally will be limited to evidence of the amount actually paid.

    Past Medical Care
    First, the proposed bill limits evidence of past paid medical bills to the amount actually paid for the services regardless of the source of the payment. Therefore, if a full medical bill for past services has been paid by an insurer, the actual amount paid by the insurer is the only amount admissible at trial. The initial billed amount presented by the provider may not be presented as evidence.

    Second, the bill hinges on the admissibility of evidence to prove the amount of past unpaid medical bills on the type of health care coverage provided to a plaintiff.

    • If a plaintiff has health care coverage, evidence of the amount the coverage is obligated to reimburse the health care provider for satisfaction of the medical services rendered under an insurance contract or regulation (including a plaintiff's share of medical expenses) is admissible at trial.

    • If a plaintiff has health care coverage but chooses instead to fund medical care through use of a letter of protection (defined in the bill as "any arrangement by which a health care provider renders treatment in exchange for a promise of payment for the claimant's medical expenses from any judgment or settlement of a personal injury or wrongful death action), then only evidence of the amount the coverage would reimburse under an insurance contract or regulation (including plaintiff's share of expenses) had the plaintiff obtained treatment pursuant to his/her health care coverage is admissible at trial.

    • If a plaintiff does not have health care coverage, then evidence of 120 percent of the Medicare reimbursement rate in effect on the date of the claimant's incurred medical treatment or services, or, if there is no applicable Medicare rate for a service, 170 percent of the applicable state Medicaid rate.

    • Finally, if a plaintiff receives services pursuant to a letter of protection and the medical bill is subsequently assigned to a third party, then only evidence of the amount the third party agreed to pay the provider for the right to receive payment is admissible.

    Future Medical Bills
    The proposed bill also provides guidance on the admissibility of evidence relating to damages for future medical care.

    • If a plaintiff has health care coverage or is eligible for health care coverage, only evidence of the amount for which the future charges could be satisfied if submitted to such health care coverage (including a plaintiffs' portion of medical expenses) is admissible at trial.

    • Whereas, if a plaintiff does not have health care coverage or has health care coverage through Medicare or Medicaid, or is eligible for such health care coverage, evidence of 120 percent of the Medicare reimbursement rate in effect at the time of trial for the medical treatment or services the claimant will receive, or, if there is no applicable Medicare rate for a service, 170 percent of the applicable state Medicaid rate, is admissible.



    ------------------------------
    Rebecca Busch
    CEO
    rebecca@mbaaudit.com
    Westmont, IL United States
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-24-2023 15:07

    Thank you for sending this article my way - it really promotes the concept of really knowing and understanding basic healthcare finance and yes sorry the concept of revenue cycle basics. 



    ------------------------------
    Rebecca Busch
    CEO
    rebecca@mbaaudit.com
    Westmont, IL United States
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-24-2023 16:47
    Thank you for sending. 

    This is the essence of an article published this week in Seattle Times.

    Reimbursement rates appear to be driving some  hospitals out of business.

    image0.jpeg

    Best, 

    Tony

    Anthony J. Choppa, MEd, CRC, CCM, CDMS
    Rehabilitation Counselor/Case Manager
    OSC Vocational Systems, Inc
    10132 NE 185th 
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  • 4.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-24-2023 17:17
    This is what is happening in Florida thanks to our Governor 

    Gerri 
    Sent from my iPhone





  • 5.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 08:51

    Thanks for posting. Is this bill state specific. When I looked it up, it appears to be a Florida bill. Do you know when they are voting on it and whether it is getting any traction. The implications to what we do seem to be fairly significant and it certainly places a new burden on attorneys.



    ------------------------------
    Deborah Katz
    President
    debbieweiner@advancedrm.com
    PHILADELPHIA, PA United States
    ------------------------------



  • 6.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 09:46
    It was signed by florida governor on Wednesday March 22, 2023.






  • 7.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 10:28
    Thanks for the info. We'll have to keep an eye on how this works out. Florida is in a different place than some of the other states right now but it does hand implications for the rest of us. 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 8.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 10:29
    How does everyone feel about this bill? 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 9.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 11:11
    If it is a FL bill, it has no application outside Florida.  Given the political winds in FL, it is surprising that such a bill that clearly benefits plaintiffs would be signed by DeSantis.

    I'd like to see more comments from a FL IARP member or FL attorney.

    Bob

    Robert H. Taylor
    1987 Haven's End
    Prescott, AZ 86305-2148
    (928) 713-6833
    (720) 600-2636

    2162 Summerlin Ln
    Longmont, CO 80503-3915
    (928) 713-6833
    (720) 600-2636

    Sent from my iPad





  • 10.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 11:47
    It apparently does not benefit plaintiffs for several reasons and affects life care planning too bec future medical is limited, among other things.






  • 11.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 11:59
    I agree but it also changes the way we'll need to do our costing. We'll need to have access to reimbursement information from each insurance company, we'll need to have information on deductibles, and co-pays, we'll need to have information on billed amounts and potential write offs if the client is unable to pay the balance of the bill, and we'll need to be able to calculate all of this into our plans. In addition, what happens if the client loses his/her insurance and is uninsured for a period of time? We'll have to understand how to calculate items that aren't covered and will need to know the nuances of each plan in order to make these calculations. For example, what happens if the insurance carrier denies a rehabilitation stay which is recommended by the physician. In this scenario, does the client need to accept the limitations of his plan or should the settlement provide sufficient funds to cover this. What happens if the client needs assisted living or a specialized bed that is not covered. What happens if there is a cap on PT or they don't believe in training for an exoskeleton, or if the TBI client requires community based treatment and this is not covered. 

    Basically, it seems to put us in an even more difficult position as Life Care planners and it will make it very challenging, at best, to create a plan in this environment. 

    This is my opinion but I am interested in hearing further dialogue.

    Thank you for the discussion.



    www.advancedrm.com

    Deborah L. Weiner Katz, OTR/L, CCM, CLCP

    President

    AdvancedRM

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  • 12.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 12:05
    Essentially it seems to put us in the position of understanding everything about how the insurance contract works. And those contracts can change from year to year and by carriers. I do not see this as benefiting plaintiffs.

    I’ll be very interested to see how this plays out.

    Katherine Dunlap

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 13.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 12:19
    It absolutely does not benefit plaintiffs. It benefits the insurance company by lowering the settlement costs and placing the burden on everyone else. For example, if a client has Medicare or Medicaid, this system now has to pick up the cost of the care of people who are injured. The liability is shifted onto the system, which is already broken and taxed. Health insurers are also taking on the burden of the cost of care instead of the liable parties. Health insurance costs are driven by usage, therefore, everyone who pays for private coverage, will be impacted by the shifting in costs.

    This seems to be a poor plan, at best. Again, I am interested in the opinion of others. 



    www.advancedrm.com

    Deborah L. Weiner Katz, OTR/L, CCM, CLCP

    President

    AdvancedRM

    T: 484.386.6100  

    F: 484.386.6101

    Click for our latest blog post! 


    Please note our new address:

    AdvancedRM

    6024 Ridge Ave

    Suite 116 Box 313

    Philadelphia, PA 19128







  • 14.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 10:58

    you have an excellent point here - it is going to take me awhile to formulate a response - what one needs to learn is contained within this framework (i am not done thinking it through)

    Medicare - is a beneficiary program - it provides services in the context of what the benefit program is willing to provide - it does not provide services in the context of what the patient needs (very different thought process) Advantage at least the program is transparent you just need to learn what it provides and does not - in fact CMS.gov provides free CEU's i just went through  a bunch for my coding CEU requirements - when i am bored will try to list a list that i think would be helpful.

    Medicaid - is a recipient program - similar in scope to the above - it is for services that the state legislature is willing to budget to provide NOT clinically based on the recipients needs. Advantage: transparent same a the Medicare Program

    Private Sector - this is the area that I really need to study.... in order for LCPers in Florida to be prepared and for the rest of us to learn because once this kind of stuff happens it spreads and we already have bad case law that is not based on true operating industry practices. 

    Healthcare benefit programs:

    Self funded ERISA plans that hire an organization to be a Third Party Administrator (TPA) you need to appreciate if the organization is purely a TPA enterprise versus a known carrier (BCBS United Aetna et al) functioning as a TPA. What is fascinating about this segment is that  under the affordable care act - they are exempt from a calculation called the Medical Loss Ratio - look it up - why is it fascinating for a data geek - the formula requires the use of real numbers to calculate - have you seen those articles in which refunds were given because the administrative cost are beyond 15% threshold. Well that number does not have to be calculated. So self funded plans never get refunds (follow the money to interpret that concept)  What does the mean? Their proprietary monetary transactions are not transparent - this include an .gov, .state, large self funded unions, self funded employers. Disadvantage of the Florida law - they assume the payer relationship with the provider and the beneficiary is transparent - it is not they are creating a scenario of speculation - i would prefer that they make the rule a fair multiplier of the Medicare rate and not assume what will be covered or not covered by a beneficiary program.  I can see future liability exposure to attorney when they get the number wrong.  I Believe their is precedent with Medicare Set asides of liability when the parties get the amount wrong.

    Real commercial insurance - now here it is the same concept what will the benefit plan provide for - i was talking to a FL lcper - i think it would be interesting for them to experiment - look at an item within your plan - get the individual to submit a precertification letter - see what happens. All of you start collecting EOB's and examine them - i have done so much work in this area that i have collected illustrative examples of EOBs - every time a law is passed or a class action occurs they change their words - i still find it interesting when they use the "amount paid" - which I only see with .gov employees versus "allowed amount" or "benefit plan amount" study the words it is the best prep you can start providing for yourself. I am always amused with this EOB statement "We are denying this service because it is not medically necessary - however this does not mean that the services your provider is recommending is not medically required." Disadvantage - the market is not transparent from the payer end - and it is still legal for them to have proprietary benefit plan amounts. Think about that - you have legislation that wants you to have access to future proprietary data????? The medial loss ratio does apply in this segment and when you read about refunds it is for real insurance.

    So with self funded plans the employer assumes risk the TPA does not.

    With insurance plans the payer assumes risk the employer does not.

    That means we have inequity in the market of risk - so one of my biggest concerns with the Florida law is that they are treating healthcare benefit programs as widgets and they are far from that.

    in helping consumers that past 10 years it has only gotten worse for the individual to be able to self advocate - i can tell you we have many providers that go after the patient for the balance of charges and we have many payers that argue over over and over in denying services without clear scientific research to support their decision.

    that it for now. 



    ------------------------------
    Rebecca Busch
    CEO
    rebecca@mbaaudit.com
    Westmont, IL United States
    ------------------------------



  • 15.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 12:54
    It definitely does not favor plaintiffs. It favors big business and insurance companies. Many plaintiff attorneys were in Tallahassee fighting vigorously against this bill. It will hurt the consumer.

    Gerri 
    Sent from my iPhone





  • 16.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-25-2023 15:01
    I can understand the biases some life care planners have against this bill.  The bill provides greater clarity in terms of addressing past medical expenses and projecting expenses for future medical care.  My prior comments about this benefitting plaintiffs depends on how intellectually honest the life care planner chooses to be.  If you are a plaintiff-biased expert, this bill will reduce or eliminate unnecessary fights; the mechanism for calculations has, therefore, become simpler.  

    Is there also a benefit to defendants? Of course.

    In my over 50 years developing life care plans, one thing has become increasingly evident:  the LCPlanning literature supports realistic costing methodology.  See the recent article by Allison, Corwin, Springston, White and me in the JLCP for further guidance. 

    The days of being able to simply project expenses for future care based on past medical bills (which are never actually paid in full) or unrealistically inflated percentiles from treatises without any reliable disclosed basis are coming to an end.  This new Florida law drives home this point.

    Bob

    Robert H. Taylor
    1987 Haven's End
    Prescott, AZ 86305-2148
    (928) 713-6833
    (720) 600-2636

    2162 Summerlin Ln
    Longmont, CO 80503-3915
    (928) 713-6833
    (720) 600-2636

    Sent from my iPad





  • 17.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 10:33

    Happy Sunday,

    I may have to segment my response to this in separate posts - unfortunately additional building block articles will take another 1-2 years to further analyze this concept of the 50th percentile and get published in the meantime i offer some food for thought. I will try to separate opinion from facts

    Opinion: I think the notion of IARP members who follow the IARP standards are not intellectually honest is flawed when it comes to their selection of a percentile.  Honesty is already addressed in our ethic standards to purport that a life care planner is plaintiff biased and not intellectually honest because they don't use the 50th percentile is incorrect. In fact it is suggesting that a life care planner select a percentile without conducting any analysis is not consistent with our standards. 

    Opinion: using the 50th percentile ...."produces a Life Care Plan that is ecologically valid, intellectually honest, valid, and reliable"   I still need to do research on how ecological (relating to or concerned with the relation of living organisms to one another and their physical surroundings") ties back to one of the IARP standards.  I am undecided but for now I will interpret this use of ecology to support the idea that i take a percentile data point bring in into my analysis and take into consideration  specific attributes of the individual in which i am building a life care plan. how does the individual interact as a being within their respective environment.  The use of this term further supports the position i take in that the data in these data bases are only building blocks not the final determinant.  you will have to sign up for the billing series to get the rest of this point.

    Fact: 

    Worker's comp statutes typically gets their data from Optum (largest provider of charge data) and per their policy they set reasonable value for their services at the 75/80th - the LCPer may conclude that in their case it is appropriate to use the basis for their case that involves injuries consistent with the reasonable value set for those injured at work. In addition, the use of this range has been supported for other reasons within IARP literature- that being said .gov reference is an appropriate foundation. OPINION i am not sure i could conclude that workers compensation fee schedules are intellectually dishonest nor ecologically invalid.

     FACT Other measures of centricity include mode, median and average.  OPINION If the of mode population is blood type O+ should one assume that the blood type of the individual is O positive? - my point is the approach of one size fits all is not appropriate in healthcare the average and the mode in certain circumstances can be really impacted by specific individual characteristics (distribution of intensity of health conditions) - for example follow up care for a mild scratch from a fall versus the follow up management of a  deep wound. The charge  data is absent of patient condition and the credential of the provider. Which if you READ the description of these data bases they always state this is not to be interpreted as UCR pricing. So what purpose can it serve ? Just the pure price of a cpt code versus the reasonable value at its core- that is the main reason why the data in those databases are building blocks not the final determinate.  Besides if you do the math for professional services - the incremental percentile increase of the total $ amount is so low that is it not worth all the drama that this is creating.  Remember facility based care does not come in percentile format.

    FACT: not all price data bases are created equal (even when they are supplied by Optum)- some of them do not even give the user  data at the 50th percentile - OPINION: are we in a position to say which data bases are authoritative versus which ones are not?  Practical EXPERIENCE: I have audited so many payer systems - they do not even use the 50th percentile FYI

    OPINION: (Statisticians feel free to correct me on this) The use of the confidence interval..... if I want to have a 90% confidence that the individual will be able  to pay  the bill then you need to pick the 90th percentile. If you pick the 50th percentile then you are condemning 50% into a position that they will not be able to pay the bill.  This logic is close to the position that I have seen some LCPer's take to support the notion that they do not want to limit the individual from access to certain providers. 

    PERSONAL note: the article you referenced mischaracterizes one of my publications and article that took facility based information and used it in the context of professional billing - that being said my spouse keeps telling me don't worry about it no one will notice.  If i ever publish an article and the substance of it is used against you in a case or deposition please call me - my only goal is to teach and i never take the position that because i had an article published that it means i am right. If you are being asked by an attorney in your dep why are you not using the 50th percentile take into consideration some of the points i listed.  The data is just a building block in your analysis be confident in the support of your foundation. 



    ------------------------------
    Rebecca Busch
    CEO
    rebecca@mbaaudit.com
    Westmont, IL United States
    ------------------------------



  • 18.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 11:52

    A percentile is not percents. Percents are actual numbers. Percentiles are positional statements that cannot be added, subtracted, multiplied, or divided. Percentile are football where two half-backs make a full-back. That is absurd. If you want to do math with percentiles convert the percentile location to a Z-Score, do the math, and then convert it back to the representational percentile. Weschler distributions of Z-Scores has a mean of 100 with a standard deviation of 15, GATB is mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 20, and T-Scores are a mean of 50 with a standard deviation of 10. Weschler divides standard deviations into thirds, GATB divides standard deviations into fourths, and T-Scores divide standard deviations into halves. Of course a Z-Score has a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1. 

    I like percentiles for situations where the bell cannot be unrung. "if you line up 100 people in a room based on this variable, she would be in another room." It is not accurate because a percentile less that 1 represents placement for a thousand, 10 thousand, 100 thousand people, but it makes a very easy remembered human point. 

    Saying the price of a service or product should be based on a percentile has no predictive validity. Nothing can mathematically or logically be more valid that it is reliable. A percentile ranking has not ability to determine the equality of prices for the other items or services. It only represents a position, not a value. Some prices may be from Walmart, and the outlier that pulls up the percentile could be based on a government contract. The only way to predict a price with any accuracy is to use the mean (average) and standard deviation. The mean can be still skewed (distorted) by extreme scores, but it has the advantage of balancing out the impact of 20,000 items sold for one dollar compared to 1 item sold for 20,000 dollars. 



    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Dennis
    Rehabilitation Psychologist
    ken.dennis@juno.com
    Stillwater, MN United States
    ------------------------------



  • 19.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 12:33
    I was counting on you to reply - the article was based on fairhealth and context for healthcare - fairhealth is clear that their data is not purported to be UCR - they are very clear on their marketing material in how their information is to be used - which is informational ….only in fact they are very strict because the birth of the organization was a result of a corporate integrity agreement. Their collection of data, I don’t recall, includes numbers saved from providing practice management services.

    Context for healthcare is a different story - if you read the introduction in their book, they’re disclaimers and the marketing material that was basically copied as fact in the article …it does have some guidance on the use of their i formation … they do state that providers (professional only) can use their information to set pricing- Among a few other things - they also have data from their practice management business and all other sorts of data points. So how the traveled to their data repository is different then Fairhealth.

    After reading the description of context data I am not sure what would be the best analytic approach for further study? How valid is the end point of the final number?

    Any thoughts on dismissing a .gov percentile as not a reliable source for life car planners to use? So if workers comp chooses the 80th percentile any reason why after the LCPer who analyzes the actual professional charge and determines the $ at 80th is acceptable not to use it? If it is not acceptable then why?

    I will have to study your response with a statistician to follow up ….I smile at your post cuz I am always told I need to simplify ——



    Sent from my iPhone




  • 20.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 14:21

    Attorneys criticized Scott Streater for being too sophisticated and mathematical when he just used a WRAT. Keep on using statistics. That is our language. I simplify my results in the Executive Summary and in the Recommendations and it is often Bolded, Underlined, and in 16-point type. The courts are getting better. This year, I had several Findings of Fact come back that people were Competent or Culpable because "none of the T-Scores exceeded 70" instead of quoting what the person did 5 or 10 years ago. 

    Obviously, you cannot determine what the government will use for a cutoff. An 80th percentile is about a T-Score  of 58.5. Accepting that a Median has around a T-Score of 50, that represent a increase over the Median/Mean/Average value of 17 percent. The government values come with error estimates of probably 3 or 5 percent. Since percentiles are not percents, those values are estimates based on assumed normal distributions. These values change with the computers being used and the distribution created. The LCPs will want to ask if a given service or product is worth 17 percent more than the average cost (plus or minus the error estimate).

    You do not have to know the true value for your recommendation. It has to be a realistic estimate supported by factual information rather than the "I think so" that other experts use. When the Appeals Court Judge says you have a lot of numbers, you know all the discussion will be about other things. The starting point has already been determined by what you presented. 



    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Dennis
    Rehabilitation Psychologist
    ken.dennis@juno.com
    Stillwater, MN United States
    ------------------------------



  • 21.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 11:25

    It will hurt the consumer by shifting the cost of care to out of packet scenario. I am seeing this already 



    ------------------------------
    Rebecca Busch
    CEO
    rebecca@mbaaudit.com
    Westmont, IL United States
    ------------------------------



  • 22.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 09:44

    If you are surprised Robert, then you don't understand Gov. DeSantis. He portrays himself as a populist and talks about Florida as a free state. In actuality he is a small minded bigoted hick who gets his support from lrge donars. This bill that he signd is to protect the plaintiffs, his people.

    this bill on the restriction of evidence is not to promote the right of redress, but to lower the cosrts of insurance claims by making redress too expensive and difficult to pursue. I am pretty sure that there are better solutions to the problem of our insurance costs. You might consider history. The insurance commission does not regulate the insurance industry practices or rates. the legislature dies that. Apparently not very well. The insurance Commission lost its teeth due to teh policies and legislatin passed by a previous governor in the early 2020's.

    I know that we do not want to be olitical her. We are rehabilitationists and ought to be concerned. this is not about liberal or conservative political philosophy. It is about good governance that serves the people. That is not happening in Florida. I guess that is politics. Should we have a democracy or an autocracy? That is what is happening in Florida.



    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Barrett MEd CAP CRC CCM CVE
    Rehabilitation and Vocational Consultant
    optionsplus@vocrehab.com
    Hollywood, FL United States
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward

    Posted 03-26-2023 09:47

    My mistake. It is the defendants that benefit. Corporations and insurance industry. Yes, plaintiffs are screwed.



    ------------------------------
    Jeffrey Barrett MEd CAP CRC CCM CVE
    Rehabilitation and Vocational Consultant
    optionsplus@vocrehab.com
    Hollywood, FL United States
    ------------------------------