Attorneys criticized Scott Streater for being too sophisticated and mathematical when he just used a WRAT. Keep on using statistics. That is our language. I simplify my results in the Executive Summary and in the Recommendations and it is often Bolded, Underlined, and in 16-point type. The courts are getting better. This year, I had several Findings of Fact come back that people were Competent or Culpable because "none of the T-Scores exceeded 70" instead of quoting what the person did 5 or 10 years ago.
Obviously, you cannot determine what the government will use for a cutoff. An 80th percentile is about a T-Score of 58.5. Accepting that a Median has around a T-Score of 50, that represent a increase over the Median/Mean/Average value of 17 percent. The government values come with error estimates of probably 3 or 5 percent. Since percentiles are not percents, those values are estimates based on assumed normal distributions. These values change with the computers being used and the distribution created. The LCPs will want to ask if a given service or product is worth 17 percent more than the average cost (plus or minus the error estimate).
You do not have to know the true value for your recommendation. It has to be a realistic estimate supported by factual information rather than the "I think so" that other experts use. When the Appeals Court Judge says you have a lot of numbers, you know all the discussion will be about other things. The starting point has already been determined by what you presented.
Original Message:
Sent: 03-26-2023 12:33
From: Rebecca Busch
Subject: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
I was counting on you to reply - the article was based on fairhealth and context for healthcare - fairhealth is clear that their data is not purported to be UCR - they are very clear on their marketing material in how their information is to be used - which is informational ….only in fact they are very strict because the birth of the organization was a result of a corporate integrity agreement. Their collection of data, I don't recall, includes numbers saved from providing practice management services.
Context for healthcare is a different story - if you read the introduction in their book, they're disclaimers and the marketing material that was basically copied as fact in the article …it does have some guidance on the use of their i formation … they do state that providers (professional only) can use their information to set pricing- Among a few other things - they also have data from their practice management business and all other sorts of data points. So how the traveled to their data repository is different then Fairhealth.
After reading the description of context data I am not sure what would be the best analytic approach for further study? How valid is the end point of the final number?
Any thoughts on dismissing a .gov percentile as not a reliable source for life car planners to use? So if workers comp chooses the 80th percentile any reason why after the LCPer who analyzes the actual professional charge and determines the $ at 80th is acceptable not to use it? If it is not acceptable then why?
I will have to study your response with a statistician to follow up ….I smile at your post cuz I am always told I need to simplify --
Sent from my iPhone
Original Message:
Sent: 3/26/2023 11:52:00 AM
From: Kenneth L. Dennis
Subject: RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
A percentile is not percents. Percents are actual numbers. Percentiles are positional statements that cannot be added, subtracted, multiplied, or divided. Percentile are football where two half-backs make a full-back. That is absurd. If you want to do math with percentiles convert the percentile location to a Z-Score, do the math, and then convert it back to the representational percentile. Weschler distributions of Z-Scores has a mean of 100 with a standard deviation of 15, GATB is mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 20, and T-Scores are a mean of 50 with a standard deviation of 10. Weschler divides standard deviations into thirds, GATB divides standard deviations into fourths, and T-Scores divide standard deviations into halves. Of course a Z-Score has a mean of 0 and a standard deviation of 1.
I like percentiles for situations where the bell cannot be unrung. "if you line up 100 people in a room based on this variable, she would be in another room." It is not accurate because a percentile less that 1 represents placement for a thousand, 10 thousand, 100 thousand people, but it makes a very easy remembered human point.
Saying the price of a service or product should be based on a percentile has no predictive validity. Nothing can mathematically or logically be more valid that it is reliable. A percentile ranking has not ability to determine the equality of prices for the other items or services. It only represents a position, not a value. Some prices may be from Walmart, and the outlier that pulls up the percentile could be based on a government contract. The only way to predict a price with any accuracy is to use the mean (average) and standard deviation. The mean can be still skewed (distorted) by extreme scores, but it has the advantage of balancing out the impact of 20,000 items sold for one dollar compared to 1 item sold for 20,000 dollars.
------------------------------
Kenneth Dennis
Rehabilitation Psychologist
ken.dennis@juno.com
Stillwater, MN United States
Original Message:
Sent: 03-26-2023 10:33
From: Rebecca Busch
Subject: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
Happy Sunday,
I may have to segment my response to this in separate posts - unfortunately additional building block articles will take another 1-2 years to further analyze this concept of the 50th percentile and get published in the meantime i offer some food for thought. I will try to separate opinion from facts
Opinion: I think the notion of IARP members who follow the IARP standards are not intellectually honest is flawed when it comes to their selection of a percentile. Honesty is already addressed in our ethic standards to purport that a life care planner is plaintiff biased and not intellectually honest because they don't use the 50th percentile is incorrect. In fact it is suggesting that a life care planner select a percentile without conducting any analysis is not consistent with our standards.
Opinion: using the 50th percentile ...."produces a Life Care Plan that is ecologically valid, intellectually honest, valid, and reliable" I still need to do research on how ecological (relating to or concerned with the relation of living organisms to one another and their physical surroundings") ties back to one of the IARP standards. I am undecided but for now I will interpret this use of ecology to support the idea that i take a percentile data point bring in into my analysis and take into consideration specific attributes of the individual in which i am building a life care plan. how does the individual interact as a being within their respective environment. The use of this term further supports the position i take in that the data in these data bases are only building blocks not the final determinant. you will have to sign up for the billing series to get the rest of this point.
Fact:
Worker's comp statutes typically gets their data from Optum (largest provider of charge data) and per their policy they set reasonable value for their services at the 75/80th - the LCPer may conclude that in their case it is appropriate to use the basis for their case that involves injuries consistent with the reasonable value set for those injured at work. In addition, the use of this range has been supported for other reasons within IARP literature- that being said .gov reference is an appropriate foundation. OPINION i am not sure i could conclude that workers compensation fee schedules are intellectually dishonest nor ecologically invalid.
FACT Other measures of centricity include mode, median and average. OPINION If the of mode population is blood type O+ should one assume that the blood type of the individual is O positive? - my point is the approach of one size fits all is not appropriate in healthcare the average and the mode in certain circumstances can be really impacted by specific individual characteristics (distribution of intensity of health conditions) - for example follow up care for a mild scratch from a fall versus the follow up management of a deep wound. The charge data is absent of patient condition and the credential of the provider. Which if you READ the description of these data bases they always state this is not to be interpreted as UCR pricing. So what purpose can it serve ? Just the pure price of a cpt code versus the reasonable value at its core- that is the main reason why the data in those databases are building blocks not the final determinate. Besides if you do the math for professional services - the incremental percentile increase of the total $ amount is so low that is it not worth all the drama that this is creating. Remember facility based care does not come in percentile format.
FACT: not all price data bases are created equal (even when they are supplied by Optum)- some of them do not even give the user data at the 50th percentile - OPINION: are we in a position to say which data bases are authoritative versus which ones are not? Practical EXPERIENCE: I have audited so many payer systems - they do not even use the 50th percentile FYI<o:p></o:p>
OPINION: (Statisticians feel free to correct me on this) The use of the confidence interval..... if I want to have a 90% confidence that the individual will be able to pay the bill then you need to pick the 90th percentile. If you pick the 50th percentile then you are condemning 50% into a position that they will not be able to pay the bill. This logic is close to the position that I have seen some LCPer's take to support the notion that they do not want to limit the individual from access to certain providers.
PERSONAL note: the article you referenced mischaracterizes one of my publications and article that took facility based information and used it in the context of professional billing - that being said my spouse keeps telling me don't worry about it no one will notice. If i ever publish an article and the substance of it is used against you in a case or deposition please call me - my only goal is to teach and i never take the position that because i had an article published that it means i am right. If you are being asked by an attorney in your dep why are you not using the 50th percentile take into consideration some of the points i listed. The data is just a building block in your analysis be confident in the support of your foundation.
------------------------------
Rebecca Busch
CEO
rebecca@mbaaudit.com
Westmont, IL United States
Original Message:
Sent: 03-25-2023 15:01
From: Robert H. Taylor
Subject: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
I can understand the biases some life care planners have against this bill. The bill provides greater clarity in terms of addressing past medical expenses and projecting expenses for future medical care. My prior comments about this benefitting plaintiffs depends on how intellectually honest the life care planner chooses to be. If you are a plaintiff-biased expert, this bill will reduce or eliminate unnecessary fights; the mechanism for calculations has, therefore, become simpler.
Is there also a benefit to defendants? Of course.
In my over 50 years developing life care plans, one thing has become increasingly evident: the LCPlanning literature supports realistic costing methodology. See the recent article by Allison, Corwin, Springston, White and me in the JLCP for further guidance.
The days of being able to simply project expenses for future care based on past medical bills (which are never actually paid in full) or unrealistically inflated percentiles from treatises without any reliable disclosed basis are coming to an end. This new Florida law drives home this point.
Bob
Robert H. Taylor
1987 Haven's End
Prescott, AZ 86305-2148
(928) 713-6833
(720) 600-2636
2162 Summerlin Ln
Longmont, CO 80503-3915
(928) 713-6833
(720) 600-2636
Sent from my iPad
Original Message:
Sent: 3/25/2023 12:54:00 PM
From: Gerri Pennachio
Subject: RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
It definitely does not favor plaintiffs. It favors big business and insurance companies. Many plaintiff attorneys were in Tallahassee fighting vigorously against this bill. It will hurt the consumer.
Gerri
Sent from my iPhone
Original Message:
Sent: 3/25/2023 11:59:00 AM
From: Deborah L. Katz
Subject: RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
I agree but it also changes the way we'll need to do our costing. We'll need to have access to reimbursement information from each insurance company, we'll need to have information on deductibles, and co-pays, we'll need to have information on billed amounts and potential write offs if the client is unable to pay the balance of the bill, and we'll need to be able to calculate all of this into our plans. In addition, what happens if the client loses his/her insurance and is uninsured for a period of time? We'll have to understand how to calculate items that aren't covered and will need to know the nuances of each plan in order to make these calculations. For example, what happens if the insurance carrier denies a rehabilitation stay which is recommended by the physician. In this scenario, does the client need to accept the limitations of his plan or should the settlement provide sufficient funds to cover this. What happens if the client needs assisted living or a specialized bed that is not covered. What happens if there is a cap on PT or they don't believe in training for an exoskeleton, or if the TBI client requires community based treatment and this is not covered.
Basically, it seems to put us in an even more difficult position as Life Care planners and it will make it very challenging, at best, to create a plan in this environment.
This is my opinion but I am interested in hearing further dialogue.
Thank you for the discussion.
www.advancedrm.com
Deborah L. Weiner Katz, OTR/L, CCM, CLCP
President
AdvancedRM
T: 484.386.6100
F: 484.386.6101
Click for our latest blog post!
Please note our new address:
AdvancedRM
6024 Ridge Ave
Suite 116 Box 313
Philadelphia, PA 19128
Original Message:
Sent: 3/25/2023 11:47:00 AM
From: Ellen Darrow Fernandez
Subject: RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
It apparently does not benefit plaintiffs for several reasons and affects life care planning too bec future medical is limited, among other things.
Original Message:
Sent: 3/25/2023 11:11:00 AM
From: Robert H. Taylor
Subject: RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
If it is a FL bill, it has no application outside Florida. Given the political winds in FL, it is surprising that such a bill that clearly benefits plaintiffs would be signed by DeSantis.
I'd like to see more comments from a FL IARP member or FL attorney.
Bob
Robert H. Taylor
1987 Haven's End
Prescott, AZ 86305-2148
(928) 713-6833
(720) 600-2636
2162 Summerlin Ln
Longmont, CO 80503-3915
(928) 713-6833
(720) 600-2636
Sent from my iPad
Original Message:
Sent: 3/25/2023 8:51:00 AM
From: Deborah L. Katz
Subject: RE: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
Thanks for posting. Is this bill state specific. When I looked it up, it appears to be a Florida bill. Do you know when they are voting on it and whether it is getting any traction. The implications to what we do seem to be fairly significant and it certainly places a new burden on attorneys.
------------------------------
Deborah Katz
President
debbieweiner@advancedrm.com
PHILADELPHIA, PA United States
Original Message:
Sent: 03-24-2023 15:03
From: Rebecca Mendoza Saltiel Busch
Subject: Talk about a costing challenge - if you have anything brewing in your state please forward
If your head is still spinning on how to cost and costing challenges - read the attached. had to print the article because I could not post the link
Restrictions on the Admissibility of Past and Future Medical Bills as Evidence at Trial
HB 837's language notably modifies the collateral source rule to limit the introduction of evidence for medical damages at trial. If the bill is signed into law, evidence offered to prove the amount of damages for past or future medical treatment at trial generally will be limited to evidence of the amount actually paid.
Past Medical Care
First, the proposed bill limits evidence of past paid medical bills to the amount actually paid for the services regardless of the source of the payment. Therefore, if a full medical bill for past services has been paid by an insurer, the actual amount paid by the insurer is the only amount admissible at trial. The initial billed amount presented by the provider may not be presented as evidence.
Second, the bill hinges on the admissibility of evidence to prove the amount of past unpaid medical bills on the type of health care coverage provided to a plaintiff.
If a plaintiff has health care coverage, evidence of the amount the coverage is obligated to reimburse the health care provider for satisfaction of the medical services rendered under an insurance contract or regulation (including a plaintiff's share of medical expenses) is admissible at trial.
If a plaintiff has health care coverage but chooses instead to fund medical care through use of a letter of protection (defined in the bill as "any arrangement by which a health care provider renders treatment in exchange for a promise of payment for the claimant's medical expenses from any judgment or settlement of a personal injury or wrongful death action), then only evidence of the amount the coverage would reimburse under an insurance contract or regulation (including plaintiff's share of expenses) had the plaintiff obtained treatment pursuant to his/her health care coverage is admissible at trial.
If a plaintiff does not have health care coverage, then evidence of 120 percent of the Medicare reimbursement rate in effect on the date of the claimant's incurred medical treatment or services, or, if there is no applicable Medicare rate for a service, 170 percent of the applicable state Medicaid rate.
Finally, if a plaintiff receives services pursuant to a letter of protection and the medical bill is subsequently assigned to a third party, then only evidence of the amount the third party agreed to pay the provider for the right to receive payment is admissible.
Future Medical Bills
The proposed bill also provides guidance on the admissibility of evidence relating to damages for future medical care.
If a plaintiff has health care coverage or is eligible for health care coverage, only evidence of the amount for which the future charges could be satisfied if submitted to such health care coverage (including a plaintiffs' portion of medical expenses) is admissible at trial.
Whereas, if a plaintiff does not have health care coverage or has health care coverage through Medicare or Medicaid, or is eligible for such health care coverage, evidence of 120 percent of the Medicare reimbursement rate in effect at the time of trial for the medical treatment or services the claimant will receive, or, if there is no applicable Medicare rate for a service, 170 percent of the applicable state Medicaid rate, is admissible.
------------------------------
Rebecca Busch
CEO
rebecca@mbaaudit.com
Westmont, IL United States
------------------------------