Mike, it seems like the Uber "job" (it is more accurately self-employment) is the new small product assembler, Walmart Greeter, surveillance system monitor favored as a dear, darling of predominately defense oriented VEs, as those occupations become increasingly difficult to document and, when potentially found, have low earnings, compared to the alleged "wages" of the Uber driver. My point is that it is extremely difficult to project earning capacity based upon any sort of self-employment, or 1099, gig situation. An elephant in the room.
If a VE has actually done many forensic PI or PL cases involving individuals so self-employed, as many of us have, that VE routinely finds patterns in reviewing prior tax returns: that taxable income (after all sorts of various expenses and "expenses" have been reported) is often (not always) quite low. That is a problem not only insofar as projection of past earning capacity but also in terms of hanging one's hat on such for post-injury.
Any sort of self-employment in any field in which evaluee has not previously been employed (or even then) is also very problematic since there is tons out there about % of self-employment fails within X period time. It is all very murky and murky is not so good. It is why, if a VE is evaluating a self-employed carpenter, the VE may sometimes best utilize employed carpenter OEWS and LMS wages rather than the sometimes scanty net taxable income from the self-employment, assuming the person has substantial prior employed experience as the carpenter (or whatever occupation relevant).
Though some VEs will argue that someone's "earning capacity" (based only upon puny taxable earnings after expenses) is whatever tiny amount, let's say less than minimum wage, such only goes toward calling into logical question any other sort of opinion they make. I have seen several plaintiff-oriented VEs go the other way, on the other hand merely ignore the evaluee's own tax records of expenses reporting that the fellow "made" the gross $100,000 or whatever grand amount when the net is like $20K (less than minimum wage). Then they also neglect to cover that base by using OEWS and LMS to document access to employed wages as an X or Y.
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Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
Board Certified Vocational Expert
Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
DBA Career Directions Northwest
4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
#188
Portland, Oregon, 97214
(503)234-4484
(503)234-4126 fax
email:
sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.comwebsite:
www.careerdirectionsnw.com------------------------------
Original Message:
Sent: 04-21-2023 11:29
From: Mike McCord
Subject: Reliable data on Uber/Lyft earnings and job requirements
Thanks for the feedback. I did find multiple "surveys" from websites such as Gridwise, Ridester, etc. The problem is the sample sizes are very small, there is no measure of reliability or validity, and there are pretty huge discrepancies between the results posted on these sites. Certainly none of them have enough reliability or validity to serve as a foundation for testifying in court. The issue with the websites is that they DON'T provide any data regarding the language and physical requirements of the rideshare jobs. I sacrificed and got a couple of Uber Eats meals the past few days and tipped the drivers really well to pick their brains a bit. They reported that they 1. Can opt out of heavier jobs, e.g., delivering groceries; and 2. All hiring and driving is done through the app; you can spend your entire Uber/Lyft career without ever talking to a live supervisor. Of course, this information is entirely anecdotal, would likely be considered hearsay, and in no way represents anything like a valid sample size. My waistline would not survive me replicating this research methodology to the degree required to have any validity. As Michelle noted earlier, Uber now provides an estimate of earnings for a particular geographical location. Others have pointed out that these earnings are gross earnings and do not reflect expenses necessary to operate a vehicle. As Scott said, the requirements of these occupations are definitely in need of further research. Not only are they abundantly available, they are also a favorite refuge of defense attorneys if no other jobs can be identified.
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Mike McCord
mike@mccordrehab.com
Atlanta, GA United States
Original Message:
Sent: 04-21-2023 11:03
From: Joseph C Young
Subject: Reliable data on Uber/Lyft earnings and job requirements
Aside from what you mentioned, using Uber to get a general idea of what a full time driver makes, per location. Some recent reports indicate the following:
2021 Survey, by Ridester, ranked San Fran as the highest paying city for Uber and Lyft drivers with an average hourly rate of 31.08 USD for those that worked at least 30hrs per week. Other similar cities cited were, no surprisingly, NYC, Seattle, and the best city of course, Boston! Yet another survey, in 2020 by Gridwise (driver app), identified places like Fayetteville AR and Killeen TX as some of the lowest averages, 8.81 and 9.03 hourly, respectively. Both studies, as one would expect, indicate that factors of specific location and clientele served as well as market conditions will impact these numbers. I added this simply as a precursor to the non earnings factors you presented.
Firstly, I would ask why would the company website listings for language and physical demands not be considered RELIABLE? Are you simply looking for alternative, empirical studies or specific LMS resources for these two areas, weights lifted or language requirements? According to ORS data being collected, some VE's are relying on this data as it is directly from HR professionals working for the company that employs specific jobs. If you agree with the validity of ORS data, as it is a BLS product, then I would say the information from these websites can be used. While I consider ORS's preliminary data as one factor in looking at how jobs are done, based on HR officials feedback, I don't believe there is any data on these gig positions. But, according to both Uber and Lyft websites, there are no physical requirements or language requirements. This makes sense as these are gig, non-employee jobs where independent contractors can dictate most of their own requirements/limitations. Beyond the driving requirements, set forth typically by each state, there is not restrictions on these areas. While most states require drivers tests to be in English, some offer test takers to take the test in their native language or, as we do in MA, the test takers are allowed an interpreter. The apps for both Uber and Lyft have language translators in their apps although having used Uber in Miami, DC, and Boston, all times with non-English speaking drivers, there was no need to communicate in English or even use these apps. I will note that two drivers worked specifically at airports and opened the trunk but did not load the luggage. That would be the only gig passenger driver job one would consider a need for any RFC that exceeds SED.
I think the Unicorn you are looking for is a horse with a fake hat.
Best,
Joe
Joseph Young Consulting, L.L.C.
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Joseph Young, MS, CRC, LRC (owner)
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Original Message:
Sent: 4/20/2023 2:43:00 PM
From: Michelle McBroom Weiss
Subject: RE: Reliable data on Uber/Lyft earnings and job requirements
Mike: On their web (which might require signing up as a driver), you have the opportunity to opt out of lifting luggage or to list any specific difficulties. I had an evaluee who was fairly limited mobility-wise, who had chosen to drive for Uber. He was working 40 hours a week, and earning $800/week. When I asked about luggage, he noted that a message goes out to his passengers that he cannot lift luggage, enabling them to deselect him and get another driver, if needed.
Since that evaluation I have had that exact message come to me from drivers or I had one recently that advised me the driver is deaf.
As far as concrete information, it is hard to get from Uber or Lyft and hard to do an LMS other than to take several Uber rides and survey the drivers. If you find concrete data please post.
Uber does provide data on their site, which I believe you found. https://www.uber.com/us/en/drive/
For Nashville the average wage over the last 4 weeks is $1442/week driving an average of 50 hours/week.
Best regards,
Michelle McBroom Weiss, MA, CRC, CCM, NCC, MSCC, ABVE/D, IPEC
5543 Edmondson Pike, Suite 128
Nashville, TN 37211
mcbroomweiss@mcbroomweiss.com
(P) 615-834-0186
(F) 615-831-5274
(C) 615-308-6395
Original Message:
Sent: 4/19/2023 12:00:00 PM
From: Mike McCord
Subject: Reliable data on Uber/Lyft earnings and job requirements
Hi all,
I'm circling back around on this topic from 2 years ago. Uber has updated their careers information to give you an approximation of your earnings depending on the number of hours worked, which is somewhat helpful; no such luck with Lyft. Has anyone cracked the secret code to find a RELIABLE , i.e. non-anecdotal, source for the physical demands and language requirements to drive? I'm particularly interested if there is any data regarding the need to lift luggage or if a driver can opt out of that; and the level of fluency in English required. I realize I'm probably looking for Unicorns, but where else is a guy to go for help with this info? Many thanks in advance.
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Mike McCord
mike@mccordrehab.com
Atlanta, GA United States
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