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Question on Divorce Case

  • 1.  Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 07:50

    Good Morning All,

    I have been retained on a divorce case in Illinois and am set to testify in court on October 23rd.  The wife hired me to evaluate her husband's earning capacity.  The wife emailed me last night stating that she filed a motion to remove her attorney and will be going pro se for the remainder of her case and will be handling my testimony.

    This situation has never happened to me.  The opposing attorney is quite aggressive which is not a problem for me. However, the wife not having a legal background is concerning.  Has anyone experienced this scenario? Any suggestions?  

    As always, I am grateful for the wisdom on this platform and assistance!

    Kathy



    ------------------------------
    Kathleen Mueller
    President
    kmueller@indrehabservices.com
    Naperville, IL United States
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 10:06
    Hi Kathleen,

    Five parents have wanted to hire me on different personal injury cases over the last 10 years. All were pro se plaintiffs in their child's personal injury case. I would never work for someone who is pro se, because I like having the "protection," if you will, of a law firm that legally knows what they are doing behind me. You have to protect your reputation. 

    Additionally, after handling two cases where the parent was the actual attorney, I now also decline attorneys who want to hire me for their own child's case because they are too closely/emotionally involved in the case. 


    Brenda

    Dr. Brenda Eagan-Johnson, CBIST-AP
    724-944-7744






    Original Message


  • 3.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 10:13
    Hey Kathleen:
    I had this happen to me many years ago when I had evaluated a fellow's wife.
    At the time of that service, he had been represented and I was paid for the work I did.
    A few months later he called me and asked me to testify. He was pro se at that point.
    I testified and he was obviously HORRIBLE  as he didn't know what he was doing. 
    The judge clearly hated him.
    I also got screwed out of my payment.
    In retrospect, I should simply have refused to do any further work at the point he asked me to testify, because of the "pro se" nature and the lack of protection for me on many fronts. 
    I did learn the lesson of getting a retainer and enforcing a written agreement signed by all parties before I did any work on the case.
    I still have that unpaid invoice in my unpaid invoice files.
    I no longer do divorce work since I have enough other work and I think divorce cases have gotten too "crazy" over the years with the emotions on the parties' parts.

    Cynthia (Cindy) Engebose
    Lone Oak Vocational Consulting LLC
    PO Box 14042
    West Allis, WI 53214
    414-687-2280
    "All Work is Important"


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  • 4.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 11:00
    Hi Kathleen,

    I have been involved in cases where the opposing party was pro se, but never where the retaining party was pro se.  My experience with individuals who are pro se is that the judge has asked them to reconsider and hire an attorney, and by the time that I get on the witness stand, the judge has lost patience with them.  

    For reasons similar to what others have told you in their replies, I would not work with someone who is going into court on a pro se basis.  You might be able to work out a good direct examination if you help them prepare a script, but I think that cross examination would be a nightmare.  Opposing counsel might ask objectionable questions, be argumentative, or try to get away with a host of behavior that they could attempt because the referring party has no idea how to deal with that.  It leaves you way too exposed, and as we know, anything that happens in a courtroom can follow you for years.  So that's my 2 cents!

    Steve

    Steven D. Shedlin, M.Ed., CRC
    Rehabilitation Experts of Maryland, Inc.
    One Research Court, Suite 450
    Rockville MD 20850

    (301) 962-6800
    sshedlin@gmail.com



    Original Message


  • 5.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 10:50

    Kathleen,

    I do not accept pro se cases in my practice, but I thought it might be helpful to share a few considerations for you and others who might face this.

    • Clarify representation: Once counsel withdraws, the relationship changes. Consider confirming in writing that your engagement was through the attorney and that you cannot continue services directly with a self-represented party.
    • Stay within ethical scope: For example, as a CRC professional, our codes emphasize objectivity and clear role boundaries (see CRCC Standards A.1, A.5–A.6, and C.1.b). Working directly with a pro se litigant risks role confusion and blurred boundaries.
    • Communicate professionally: Consider sending a short, factual letter acknowledging the change in representation, confirming that you cannot continue involvement without counsel, and documenting closure of the file.
    • Document and disengage: Consider maintaining detailed notes of communications and provide the former attorney or the court (if appropriate) with confirmation that your role is concluded.

    You might also seek the court's guidance, such as asking for the ability to file a motion or request for the court to appoint standby or limited-purpose counsel to oversee examination procedures, ensuring that the testimony from you that will be elicited is done correctly and that professional boundaries are maintained. This intervention may help protect both the integrity of your role and the fairness of the proceeding.

    It's always a delicate situation, but setting clear boundaries, even at this point so close to testimony, protects both your neutrality and professional integrity as the expert.

    Good luck!

    Maria A. Babinetz, MS, CRC, CDMS, CCM, ABVE / D, IPEC

    Licensed Professional Counselor – PA
    Licensed Rehabilitation Counselor - NJ

    Vocational Rehabilitation Expert

    Signature Rehabilitation Services, LLC
    1690 Sumneytown Pike

    Suite 250

    Lansdale, PA  19446

    Office: (267) 413-8922

    Mobile: (215) 480-4871

    www.signaturerehab.com



    ------------------------------
    Maria Babinetz
    Vocational Rehabilitation Expert
    maria.babinetz@signaturerehab.com
    Lansdale, PA United States
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    Original Message


  • 6.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 11:56

    Kathleen,

    Great question. Perhaps one thing to consider is who hired you. Were you hired by the wife or were you hired by retaining counsel? Did you utilize a retainer and fee agreement? Is it signed by the attorney or the wife? Good luck.

    John



    ------------------------------
    John Meltzer, MS, CRC, CDMS, LPC
    Voc-Ex Consulting LLC
    Madison, WI
    John@Voc-Ex.com
    (608) 270-0603
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 12:26
    Kathleen: it appears the excellent advice given from 3-4 of our highly qualified colleagues should assist in some exit strategy as the relationship has changed. I too never take any case without attorney support to the end, no matter the venue. This is based on my negative experiences in about 4 cases until I learned my lesson. This includes attempting VA, divorce, work comp., and PI cases. These individuals may be a situation where Ignorance meets both naivety from motivations of arrogance and trying to save of fees. Few are happy in the end. Document rational from your peers in the  file, keep it if some claim is made. Last , could you educate us with the result in this courtroom melodrama?
     
    John Berg
    Vocational Consulting, Inc.
    Seattle- WA



    Original Message


  • 8.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 12:39
    Kathleen, 

    I agree with much of the response from our colleagues and won't repeat those recommendations.  Just a few additional thoughts.

    Here is California, where I primarily do fam law, the retaining party is the party, not the attorney, and I have language in my retainer agreement about change of attorney.

    With that said, I also do not take pro per cases if I can help it, but in a case such as you describe, I have an obligation to continue to do my work.

    I am not sure of what concerns you about the wife representing herself, other than concern for her that she will not do a good job.  I agree with the comment that the court will probably encourage her to get counsel.

    I have found a party that is self-represented is usually given some leeway by the judge in asking questions, which should help.  I also have standard questions I give attorneys for my direct exam. You could do the same for the spouse who retained you.

    One thing to keep in mind, if your concern is for the wife who retained you not putting on her best case - we are not a party in the matter and you similar state your findings and opinions.  It is on the wife the choices she makes.

    Best Regards,
    Lynne Tracy, M.A., LMFT, CRC, ABVE/D
    Vocational Counseling 
    P.O. Box 8333, Calabasas, CA 91372
    Direct: (818) 880-6460  
    FAX:  (818) 880-6494   
     
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  • 9.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 13:30
    I also agree with the advice that my colleagues have provided you. I would suggest, however, that your retention agreement be modified to reflect that you will only be retained by practicing attorneys. This will eliminate any confusion and make clear to those who want to retain you that they better be an attorney if they want to do so. This case is set up for disaster for you if you choose to be retained by one of the litigants involved in the case and not an attorney.

    Bob

    Robert H. Taylor
    1987 Haven's End
    Prescott, AZ 86305-2148
    cell: (928) 713-6833







    Original Message


  • 10.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-15-2025 13:25

    I can't thank you all enough for your wisdom and input!

    I've certainly learned to change my retainer agreements and add wording about no pro se work.

    I was hired by the wife and the retainer agreement is with her and is signed by her.  They are in court now to see if the judge is going to allow my client to represent herself.  



    ------------------------------
    Kathleen Mueller
    President
    kmueller@indrehabservices.com
    Naperville, IL United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-16-2025 09:56

    The hearing is so near - Have you already performed your evaluation and written a report? If these were already done, and all is left to do is testify, then I would go ahead with that - only if the wife has paid you up to date + prepaid your testimony in cash. I would accept nothing else but prepayment in cash. 



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    J. Matthew Sims, MC, MS
    Vocational Economist
    sims@simsandwhite.com
    Flagstaff, AZ United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 12.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-16-2025 15:15

    Great question and most helpful discussion here.

    All responses merit serious consideration but for me, Bob Taylor brings up a great point:   the need to clarify this in the Retainer beforehand.   

    In this case, you did not specifically note "who" retained you, Kathleen, but I might infer that it was the wife.   Attorneys don't help the matter when they "refer" a case to us, but tell us to bill and collect from one of the parties.   At any rate, "who" paid the retainer amount?  Is it the same as "who" signed the retainer?   If wife signed and paid, it seems that -- unless known otherwise-- it is to her that services are owed.  I suspect that there was no caveat in the Retainer language which specified who was current counsel, and the longevity of that legal association.  This admittedly is an area about which I have been overlooking myself as pertains to language in the retainer.

    Thanks much for sharing and helping us all to learn, question, and perfect our craft.  Best wishes meanwhile as the matter moves forward.    



    ------------------------------
    Bob Paré, MS, CRC, LRC, FVE, ABVE/D
    rpare@consultativerehab.com
    Mt. Laurel, NJ. Tel: 609-531-2529
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 13.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-16-2025 19:23
    My bent is that it is tough to escape an "advocate" label, or at least expectation of advocacy from the spouse wishing to retain you. The attorney retainer essentially insulates an expert from perception as an advocate. The evaluee often does not quite get that the expert is not on her side, or abyone's side. That would be heightened if no attorney to explain. Yes, there are "experts" who only always are retained by one side, in this case wives, or husbands or in injury cases plaintiff or defense, thereby automatically being or being perceived as advocates by all. 

    Scott Stipe
    (503)807-2668



    Original Message


  • 14.  RE: Question on Divorce Case

    Posted 10-16-2025 15:37

    Good afternoon All,

    By way of an update, it was the wife who retained me and signed the agreement. I have learned my lesson about the language that needs to be in the agreement regarding this matter and will amend documents accordingly.  

    The wife was granted the motion to represent herself at trial.  I followed Maria's great suggestion of seeking the court's guidance to appoint standby or limited-purpose counsel to oversee the procedures.  I was told by the court deputy that the wife needs to file the motion for this.  I've asked her to do so but no response as of yet.  

    As the world turns.......



    ------------------------------
    Kathleen Mueller
    President
    kmueller@indrehabservices.com
    Naperville, IL United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message