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Listserv post frequency

Christopher Skerritt

Christopher Skerritt02-01-2024 11:14

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  • 1.  Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-01-2024 11:09

    My working theory to explain the difference between frequency of posts to the IARP Forensic Listserv these days (2x/day) and the frequency back in, let's say 2005 (5x/day), is that we are witnessing an aging (and aging out) profession that is not replenishing itself.

    -Steve Bast, MHS, CVE, CDMS, FVE, CCM, IPEC, ABVE/F, EA

    Westwind Consulting, Inc.

     



  • 2.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-01-2024 11:14
    Edited by Christopher Skerritt 02-01-2024 15:39

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  • 3.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-01-2024 11:37
    I think both are true, but I have also heard over the years about members of all ages being concerned about putting themselves out here in the forum.

    As a past leader, I can say that IARP has worked very hard at both the big board and section board levels to try and make a safe space on the listserve and has made what are difficult decisions at times to stop those who continue to violate the rules of the listserve, but it is impossible to completely control this.

    I have also heard where someone read a post of the listserve of an opposing expert in a case and gave it to an attorney to use at trial.  Absolutely abhorrent and unethical, but thankfully I can only think of hearing one instance of this.

    With that said, I hope people will begin again to post and help get the forensic listserve back to his former glory of being very active.  And I still feel the IARP listserve offers a great resource for us all to draw from the knowledge and resources of this wonderful membership. 

    It would be good to know where people, especially solo practitioners are going to discuss issues if not here.  I am sure the Board would also appreciate confirmation from people if you are still hesitant to post based on past responses you have seen.....

    Chris, there was nothing in your post that deserves question or attack. Let's hope this does not happen.   IMHO, you are part of the new generation of professionals and leaders who should be front and center. 

    Best Regards,
    Lynne Tracy, M.A., LMFT, CRC, ABVE/D
    Vocational Counseling 
    P.O. Box 8333, Calabasas, CA 91372
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  • 4.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-01-2024 11:54
    Edited by Christopher Skerritt 02-01-2024 15:39

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  • 5.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-01-2024 15:32

    I agree with Steve and Lynne. This VE thing has had an average age demographic approaching senior citizen status for decades. Expertise and age/experience variables will always relate in any profession or trade. You become more expert with more experience. No one wet behind the ears out of graduate school or with little or no VR experience can possibly be a VE. They possess little to be expert about. 

    Most of us were young when we initiated forensics, but did so after requisite years of VR casework, related degrees and certifications. I will soon be 70 and have not been accepting new cases for some time. I figure that almost a half-century of this stuff is good enough, am tired of working so hard and don't want to die some day at 80 under cross examination. Many of us old experts ought to give more space to younger experts. 

    There are really not many dumb questions I have seen over the decades here. But there is, and ought to be, professionally really must always be debate and disagreement. It ought to be passionate. It is in other professions. Critique is an unavoidable aspect of this thing we do. I have dished it out and taken it......... a lot. My feeling, and one that is shared by many colleagues I have discussed this with over the years, is that we very sincerely question whether those allegedly scared to post or those who complain about critiques actually ought to be doing this thing at all. Attorneys will be sometimes brutal with experts. Other VEs will sometimes be much worse than the attorneys. If one cannot stand the heat in a forum of colleagues, I naturally logically question whether they will sustain under the fires of the actual work. 



    ------------------------------
    Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
    Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
    Board Certified Vocational Expert
    Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
    DBA Career Directions Northwest
    4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
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    email: sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.com
    website: www.careerdirectionsnw.com
    ------------------------------

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  • 6.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-02-2024 09:32

    Some have commented they may feel uncomfortable to post on this forum and afraid of being judged. I think it is a valid argument, especially if there is also fear that comments might be used out of context in a legal venue.

    My personal experience of this forum is mixed. There have been a few helpful comments to some of my posts in the past but I have also experienced a complete lack of reaction to other issues I cared about and sought feedback on. I can understand why someone might not want to contribute again to this forum.



    ------------------------------
    Francois Paradis
    Certified Vocational Evaluator
    francois@career-options.ca
    Toronto, ON Canada
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    Original Message


  • 7.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-02-2024 12:42

    I have experienced first hand and through several conversations with other members outside of the forum feeling uncomfortable with a response or two. Some people just don't want to put themselves out there especially if they will be viewed as unfit or attacked. I have been informed by colleagues terms likes "that should be obvious" or "I would never do that" etc. have been used in some forums. This same predicate can be applied to presenting at conferences. I recently presented and most of the feedback was great and informative as a first time presenter but I had one or two out of almost 100 that was just nasty for no reason.  I truly believe continued professionalism and couth would eradicate infrequent posting, but in life you can't control others bad behavior.



    ------------------------------
    Jenn Toles MS CRC CLCP CCM
    Guided Life Care Planning Services
    info@guidedlifecare.com
    Lithia, Florida
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  • 8.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-02-2024 13:58
    Glad to hear your first experience at presenting was mostly positive Jennifer. It does make a big difference in building confidence. I am in charge of our professional forum here in Canada (CAVEWAS) and we have similar issues, in that many people feel reluctant to post, thinking they may come across as ignorant, inexperienced or incompetent. To use a gardening analogy, it takes time and care to create a healthy environment that promotes growth and diversity of ideas.
     



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  • 9.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-02-2024 14:18
    Here's the thing--we ALL start somewhere, and this is a tough profession where as "experts," our opinions are professionally questioned--and not always in a nice way. When we put ourselves out there to colleagues--whom we hope are allies and mentors--and then get injured--it hurts worse.
    I, too, have worried that sometimes my "insecurities" or questions would be used against me, especially if they are in writing, such as in this kind of forum. But this is supposed to be a safe space, not shared with others outside of it.
    I have learned to cultivate my own close personal relationships with colleagues whom I trust, who can "talk me off the ledge" when I'm in need of that, and I do that for them, as well. It's a shame some feel like they can't broaden their experience to include doing that with colleagues whom they don't personally know.
    Cindy

    Cynthia (Cindy) Engebose
    Lone Oak Vocational Consulting LLC
    PO Box 14042
    West Allis, WI 53214
    414-687-2280
    "All Work is Important"


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  • 10.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-03-2024 09:42

    I too feel unconformable posting to the listserve. I get attacked and such. I'm fortunate in that I'm sufficiently old and just don't mind it as much. My only hope is that someone benefits from my posts. But, the discomfort is still there, even with me. 



    ------------------------------
    J. Matthew Sims, MC, MS
    Vocational Economist
    sims@simsandwhite.com
    Flagstaff, AZ United States
    ------------------------------

    Original Message


  • 11.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-03-2024 09:44
    Well I appreciate your posts Matt ��

    Thanks

    Christopher Skerritt CRC, CVE, IPEC, ABVE/F, CLCP, MSCC, REAS, CPRW

    Cell: 203-605-2814 
    Fax: 401-216-6135





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  • 12.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-04-2024 16:47
    I personally feel some of the discomfort lies in the "it's not what you say, but how you say it".  Collegial discourse is so very helpful and the back and forth can prove informative.  We each have our own experiences that we draw upon and therefore our reasoning and responses will differ.  However, when a respondent feels attacked and there appears to be a relentless "see it my way/let me change your mind", this is where it gets uncomforatble.  Not just for the poster but for others reading/thinking of joining in.  Ask your question.  State your reasoning.  And then use active listening skills to absorb new information.  I may still disagree with the information provided but I do appreciate the difference of opinion.

    As for some who say this is a tough field and if you can't take it on a serv how will you do on the stand  - I say, I get paid good money to be confronted on the stand.  This should be a forum for discourse and learning.  Not adversarial.  Just my humble opinion as to why I often refrain from posting or joining in.  Certain members seem to enjoy contrariness and I say save it for your billable hours.  

    Finally, if or when anything from this forum is made public by an opposing expert I believe that should be a violation of the worst kind.  

    I too have noticed a discernible dramatic drop in serv participation so I'm happy to see this post.  Good discussion!!

    --

    Renée B. Jubrey, MS
    Certified Vocational Evaluator
    Diplomate/American Board of Vocational Experts
    RBJ Vocational Experts, LLC
    860-707-2220

     
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  • 13.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-05-2024 09:07
    These are all good points.

    I agree. It's great to have a forum for information and discussion. As Experts, we need to refine our opinions and this is an excellent way to do it in a safe and supportive environment. I appreciate the opportunity to do so.

    Debbi Katz, OTR/L, CCM, CLCP



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  • 14.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-05-2024 09:50
    Renee, I agree on all points!

    I, too, have felt reluctant to post, because it feels like any information that might be gained is far outweighed by the chance that I might be lambasted.  I have done much purging in my life of toxicity in the last few years and I don't need it here.  Let me clarify that it is a miniscule minority that generates this feeling and most in this group are just amazing, respectful, kind and appreciated.  I simply find it easier and better to reach out individually to the poster/commenter. 

    While it is alarming the number of people who have come right out and say that they avoid posting, imagine the numbers that are not saying it. We need an overhaul. 

    Connie L. Standhart, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Vocational Consultant
    Peak Solutions Vocational Services, LLC
    PO Box 934
    Middleburgh, NY 12122
    518.827.9530 (phone and fax)



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  • 15.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-05-2024 10:00
    Ditto



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  • 16.  RE: Listserv post frequency

    Posted 02-12-2024 14:37
    I've thought about if or how I wanted to respond to this for a while.  I have a few thoughts and, as usual, make for a long post.

    First, the demographic of IARP does seem to be aging and there are reasons for that.  Legislative funding for training programs is decreasing and the accreditation change in 2017 is meaning big changes for how programs graduate students who are prepared for rehab work.  I won't go into that in detail, but changes well beyond the organization or "organizational culture" are at play.  In short, rehab has always existed in large part due to public (legislative) interest in supporting people with disabilities in returning to work, specifically in funding graduate training programs through scholarships and grants.  Both public sentiment, thus funding, is diminishing and the effect is trickling down to individual organizations through reducing membership.  The attrition of the aging members (not just in IARP, but several other rehab orgs) seems to not be replenishing as Steve originally said.  That is a much bigger issue than the "culture" of the listserve, but something worth attention if the organization of IARP, arguably all of the rehabilitation community, is going to adapt to a new environment.  

    As for the listserve, it seems to me like the people who are creating this "hostile" environment are people who have been around a long time.  As I've read about and listened to the stories of people who have been in this community, they lived through the boom years, invested a great amount of time in the practices in various ways, and love this work so much.  I'm wondering in my reflective moments if this isn't what Donald Super referred to as "the decline," when people give up their occupational identity.  If a person forms too much identity in their work, perhaps it is harder to transition out to just being a husband/wife, grandparent, or community member when they retire.  If they can't make that transition, then they might hang on too long and grouch about the "kids these days" or the "uphill walk both ways" of their younger years.  Like many families, many of us have that grandpa who screams at children on Thanksgiving from his rocker about the good 'ol days.  It must be hard to let go of something so loved and valued and although they need to find a better way to cope with it or express it, I do think it comes from a place of good will.... Just very poorly expressed. Yet, I don't think the move is to kick grandpa out of the family just because he "isn't working anymore." This is at the very heart of the rehabilitation philosophy, that everyone has value even if functioning diminishes. Families and professions don't function when they are criticizing each other internally. It might just be the responsibility of the rest of the family/profession to drown out noise with overpowering laughter and joy. Most of us know this and work very hard.

    For those that are newer, you are the "golden unicorns" who need to be valued as the carriers or oral and written tradition, otherwise something of the profession will be lost. We need to risk asking "dumb questions" because otherwise we don't learn. We might just need to continue on even though we know grandpa will certainly have something to say about it.  Just know, it's not you, it's them. Also, from all that I've learned, disability-related rehab work has always been and will always be an uphill battle against people who either actively criticize or passively ignore.  Both are threats to the cause, which is bigger than an organization or a profession.  Keep talking and encouraging people to pay attention.

    For those that are nearing or at your next phase of life, please ask yourself if you are leaving a legacy of fertile ground for others to grow in, or bare dirt in which "only the strong survive."  If you want us NOT to survive, please keep talking about faux experts, outdated facts, and the hard-knocks of forensic work.  Otherwise, please know that we can value your "emeritus" status and ignore your words simultaneously.  We want the best parts of you, not what you are showing us.  For my part, I would never ban or cancel anyone, but I'ld push your rockers further and further from the main conversation until you are still free to speak to the birds about "the current state of affairs."  (For the record, this doesn't apply to 99% of us.)

    Onward, 

    Aaron Mertes PhD, PCLC, CRC
    Assistant Professor - Montana State University
    Graduate Counseling Clinical Coordinator
    Editor in Chief - Journal of Life Care Planning
    CACREP Accreditation Board of Directors






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