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assessing the impact of criminal hx

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  • 1.  assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-04-2022 22:33
    No replies, thread closed.
    Hello everyone,

    My name is Kate Kirchner, and for the past 17 years I have been doing direct job placement work. I have worked in the non-profit and government sectors, and in 2016 I started my own company doing mainly placement work. I have recently began doing vocational assessments for family law. I find my direct placement work actually is a nice compliment to the family law, because I am in touch with employers so often, it gives me a good understanding of the local labor market. I was just wondering what others do when they run into criminal history, specifically if someone has misdemeanors and/or more than 10 years have passed since the offense. As a job developer, I have filled out countless applications with clients. Many don't ask about criminal history, many do, but don't ask about misdemeanors at all, and almost all that do only ask for the last 7 years. The labor shortage makes criminal hx even less of a barrier, right now. That being said, I feel like I can't say in a report that I happen to know these things just because I run into it every day while I do placement work. I feel like that is completely anecdotal, and not super credible, as it is subjective. I was just wondering if anyone knows of a good resource for research on this topic. I was looking into Society for Human Resource Management (SHRM) best practices for background checks. I was just wondering if anyone else has anything they utilize when addressing this topic? Thanks so much for any help anyone is willing to give a newbie;-)

    Thanks,
    Kate

    ------------------------------
    Katherine Kirchner
    Owner/Employment Specialist
    aspirevocational@gmail.com
    Appleton, WI United States
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 11:08
    No replies, thread closed.
    Crime is also racial prejudice that limits employment, housing, parenting, and medical care.

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Dennis
    Rehabilitation Psychologist
    ken.dennis@juno.com
    Stillwater, MN United States
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    238488.pdf   2.81 MB 1 version
    pdf
    criminalRecords_v06_web.pdf   371 KB 1 version


  • 3.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 12:22
    No replies, thread closed.

    Crime is Economic and while there are obvious racial elements that factor in to crime and hiring practices to focus on that one aspect limits the scope of the topic that is at hand.

     

    Kate, I thank you for your question and will reply to you directly in regards to my experience with placing individuals into employment directly from the penal system.  This includes all genders, races, and creeds of which the most common denominator is not race but economic status.

     

    Respectfully,
    Joe

     

    Joseph Young, MS, CRC, LRC

    Forensic Vocational Counselor

    Joseph Young Consulting

    4209 Taylor Pond Lane

    Bedford, MA 01730

    Phone: 781-363-2689 / Fax: 508-445-8946

    EmailJoseph.Young72@outlook.com

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 4.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 13:28
    No replies, thread closed.

    I can't say I fully understand your statement, Mr. Young, "Crime is economic," but I think it is a hypothesis that being poor is somehow more closely correlated with imprisonment than is being Black.  In trying to think about this question, I found a few related factoids just now (below), but didn't stumble on anything that succinctly answered the question.  If you have evidence, I would welcome the chance to read it.

     

    -Steve Bast, MHS, CVE, CDMS, FVE, CCM, IPEC, ABVE/F, EA

    Westwind Consulting, Inc.

     

     

    1

    On 11/26/2022, Bureau of Prisons reported 38.4% of imprisoned population is Black.

    www.bop.gov/about/statistics/statistics_inmate_race.jsp

    2

    "In 2018, black Americans represented 33% of the sentenced prison population, nearly triple their 12% share of the U.S. adult population," (per PEW Research Center)

    www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/05/06/share-of-black-white-hispanic-americans-in-prison-2018-vs-2006

    3

    "Incarceration rate for Black vs white Americans: 2,306 vs. 450 per 100,000."

    www.prisonpolicy.org/research/race_and_ethnicity

    4

    13.6% of U.S. population is Black or African American alone

    2.9% of U.S. population reports being 2 or more races

    www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US#

    5

    In 2014 dollars, incarcerated people had median annual income of $19,185 prior to their incarceration, which is 41% less than non-incarcerated people of similar ages.

    www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/income.html

     

     






  • 5.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 13:48
    No replies, thread closed.

    Mr. Bast, the topic presented was criminal history as a barrier to employment.  The topic was discussing, in reality, CORI records and past history with the penal system and how this impacts hiring into competitive employment.  My response will be to discuss this, directly, with the Kate in a private email.    My direct reply about crime being economic is fairly easy to read into.   Economics, at every significant level, is most synonymous with criminal behavior.  Those with criminal histories are more likely to be making low wages and come from a lower economic status than any other factor.  To belabor the point that race is a component of this fact is not to address the economic impact, the main impact, of crime.  Those with financial resources have more opportunities to avoid criminal behavior and/or facing criminal consequences of those with less resources.  Race does not make having financial resources less effective in maneuvering the penal institution.

     

    I don't want to get into a back and forth about providing data sources or publications or studies on how race and mass incarceration impacts minorities.  That is something that certainly is an issue within our society but, down to the core, related to economics.  Thus, crime is economic and all other attempts to steer it towards any other agenda is not something that I would be looking to engage in.  However, it does not stop me from trying to educate those that tend to focus on common myths about crime and our criminal justice system.

     

    Joe

     

    Joseph Young, MS, CRC, LRC

    Forensic Vocational Counselor

    Joseph Young Consulting

    4209 Taylor Pond Lane

    Bedford, MA 01730

    Phone: 781-363-2689 / Fax: 508-445-8946

    EmailJoseph.Young72@outlook.com

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 6.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 17:57
    No replies, thread closed.
    Good Evening, Steve:
    Thank you for the statistical data you shared. I think when 38.4% of the prison population nationally is black, and this same minority group makes up only 12% of the general population in the U.S., we have just dispelled any idea that racism in the criminal justice system is a myth.

    I have worked with underserved populations in the many years that I have been doing this work. The anecdotal stories of racism in the criminal justice system, and really in every institution - housing, education, employment, etc. in society that I have witnessed would be too voluminous to share here. I have a close friend who is 55, a professional woman, happens to be black, and lives in a wealthy suburb of Buffalo. She went for a walk in a hoody and jeans on a Saturday morning. A patrol car detained her, made her produce her ID because they didn’t believe she lived there, and insulted her with, “Homes are kind of pricey here for you people, aren’t they?” before they left. This happened in America in 2021. She was just glad she had ID with her address on it with her!

    So please, myth? For all of us who have been doing this work for decades, the statistics back up our professional experience. I can’t keep silent on this issue for the sake of my many black friends.

    When working with minority populations, we also have to be aware of the discrimination they face in society in order to best help them.

    Best Regards,

    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell: (716) 807-6708

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 7.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 00:02
    No replies, thread closed.
    Joseph,

    Corrections is a young person's business. There is a given percent of the population (from later childhood to young adulthood) that will be in the correctional system. We used to talk about people aging out of corrections at about 47 years of age. The majority population has the majority of people that commit criminal behavior. The minority of people commit the minority of criminal behavior. Corrections is statistical, not economic. Prejudice does all the distribution distortions. I do competency evaluations in the second most prejudice court system in the United States (Minnesota). The most prejudiced is Michigan. Saying there is any other reason than racial prejudice for the percent of minorities being so large in the American correctional system is just a lie.

    ------------------------------
    Kenneth Dennis
    Rehabilitation Psychologist
    ken.dennis@juno.com
    Stillwater, MN United States
    ------------------------------



  • 8.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 10:16
    No replies, thread closed.

    Kenneth,

     

    I disagree with the prejudice statement in any context when dealing with the criminal justice system when discussing CAUSES of crime.  You also are skewing the original topic but I will indulge you.  Firstly, criminal behavior, the courts, policing, and the corrections system are part of the criminal justice "system" but are very different animals.  I mentioned crime is economic and you conveniently turned it into a corrections topic?   You appear to be stuck on the impact of race in corrections and other areas in this country and I am not sure what is to benefit from stating the obvious?  Yes, mass incarceration, while initiated by many policy factors, was centered around race in that statistics don't lie.  I worked in corrections as well and can attest to this.  However, to equate prejudice and incarceration rates for minorities while ignoring ECONOMIC factors is ignoring the obvious. The minority of those in prison or jails commit the MAJORITY of crimes and it's the subculture that is inherent in corrections and poverty stricken communities that dictates criminality.  This is ECONOMIC opportunity which is where all subcultures derive from.  Is race equated with poverty, yes certainly, but is it the main cause of criminal behavior, at the core, NOT EVEN CLOSE.   I will state the obvious as any societal ill is rooted in economics and any other argument is simply addressing symptoms not the disease.

     

    As I indicated, it is resources that impact crime outcomes in this country not prejudice.  There are numerous studies that have shown that taking a non-white person out of an economically disadvantaged region reduces criminal involvement and vice versa.  When a white family experiences loss of family wealth, criminal behavior and non-conformity result.  It is certainly economic and I don't see any other way around that topic. 

     

    Cheers,

    Joe


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 9.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 11:02
    No replies, thread closed.
    If crime is solely economic, why do a disproportionately higher number of families of color live in poverty to begin with?  Could it be because of discrimination, fewer job opportunities for their parents, unsatisfactory inner city school districts who do not prepare them for employment, and are vastly deficient when compared to white suburban school districts, discrimination by employers, discrimination in the criminal justice system, discrimination in housing, and on and on.  To ignore racism as a factor in poverty for people of color, and therefore a factor in criminal justice involvement is to ignore the obvious.

    U.S. Poverty Statistics – Race
    While the poverty rate for the population as a whole is 11.6% the rate varies greatly by race. Blacks have the highest poverty rate at 19.5% and Non-Hispanic whites have the lowest at 8.1%. The Poverty rate for Blacks and Hispanics is more than double that of non-Hispanic Whites.  Source: census.gov

    --
    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell:  (716) 807-6708






  • 10.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 12:35
    No replies, thread closed.
    Thanks for the info, and the documents!

    Thanks,
    Kate

    ------------------------------
    Katherine Kirchner
    Owner/Employment Specialist
    aspirevocational@gmail.com
    Appleton, WI United States
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 19:24
    No replies, thread closed.
    Amen Dr. Dennis.

    ------------------------------
    Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
    Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
    Board Certified Vocational Expert
    Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
    DBA Career Directions Northwest
    4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
    #188
    Portland, Oregon, 97214
    (503)234-4484
    (503)234-4126 fax
    email: sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.com
    website: www.careerdirectionsnw.com
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 14:00
    No replies, thread closed.
    Hey Kate,

    I occasionally work with misdemeanor and felony offenders in clinical practice and have found there to be a lack of empirical research regarding employment. The Bureau of Justice Statistics published a report in December 2021 detailing employment outcomes for felony offenders. I've attached the article to this post and it can also be retrieved here: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/eprfp10.pdf

    The article largely validated my clinical experiences, which was nice to see. I'm not sure how helpful the article will be for misdemeanor offenders, but may be a good resource to store in the archives. 

    I think your clinical experiences would hold weight in a forensic setting, falling under clinical judgment. Field, Weed, & Choppa published

    Clinical Judgment: A Working Definition for the Rehabilitation Professional in 2009, which I was pointed to many years ago when I was starting out. I've attached the journal issue to this post. I know I've seen trainings offered on clinical judgment as well, and it might be worth searching the IARP archives. 

    Thanks, I hope this is helpful. I'm definitely interested in reading other input on this topic. 



    ------------------------------
    Christopher Hallissey
    Vocational Consultant
    ChrisHallissey@gmail.com
    Tampa, FL United States
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)

    pdf
    eprfp10.pdf   1.05 MB 1 version


  • 13.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 17:54
    No replies, thread closed.
    Christopher:

    The article you posted is based on 2010 data, a bit old. We know very much that some races, black, are imprisoned at much higher rates than other races, given the percentage their percentage of the population. Also, a criminal history plus a disability, employment can be difficult in those situations. 

    In regards to Katherine's original question, the type of criminal history matters. Drug charges are not viewed as negatively as other type of charges, such as thefts, assaults and other serious crimes. Employers are concerned with liability and safety for their customers. Someone who was caught for using or even selling pot does not present the same risk as someone who was convicted of assault or a theft charge. Generally speaking, employers ask about felonies. There are licensing requirements in states that prevent individuals from working in certain professions dependent upon the criminal charge. 

    DUIs are another issue, some employers need the individual to be able to drive a company vehicle or travel to and from work sites. They will want to ensure the person has a good driving record for insurance purposes. 

    There is no question that a criminal history does impact a person's options for employment, it's simply a matter of how much impact.  I would say there would even be variations by area of the country as to the impact of a criminal history.  As always, each situation is unique and there are no specific answers. One method of obtaining this information would be labor market surveys asking that specific question in regards to a specific occupation. Some job leads/ads will provide information regarding what criminal history information they expect and reasons for potential disqualification. 

    Michelle Aliff Ph.D, CRC, CVE
    Vocational Consultant
    (503) 516-9863 (phone)
    (817) 796-1478 (fax)
    michelle.aliff@gmail.com

    The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information, including patient information protected by federal and state privacy laws. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. 







  • 14.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 18:02
      |   view attached
    No replies, thread closed.
    I have this one document showing occupational preclusions for those with certain criminal convictions - mostly for Minnesota but some are for Federal employment. It's nice just to have as a reference. I uploaded it.

    ------------------------------
    J. Matthew Sims, MC, MS
    Vocational Economist
    sims@simsandwhite.com
    Phoenix, AZ United States
    ------------------------------

    Attachment(s)



  • 15.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 10:38
    No replies, thread closed.

     

    I will disagree with the statement that drug charges are not viewed as negatively as other criminal charges.  It's a blanket statement to include "drugs" as an all encompassing entity.  The difference between recreational marijuana use now compared to years past is certainly not the same.  And, yes, compared to years past there is a better understanding within the CJ system that opioid abuse is often better addressed by health care intervention.  However, there is no bigger liability, outside of violent offenders, than drug offenders for employers.  I vaguely remember the whole DARE movement that swept a nation and the largely publicized, but misinformed crack epidemic of past administrations.  This is proof that crime and criminal policy is cyclical however standard norms are not.  Again, the idea that most drug crimes are simply smoking some "pot" is not accurate.  While marijuana laws, a class D substance, are typically fined (for over a specific ounce quantity) class A drugs, such as opioids, often carry felony charges.  It all depends on possession vs possession vs intent and other factors.  However, it is clear that while treatment options are available through drug courts, the conviction of a drug charge holds many long term implications on employment. 

     

    Employers are not allowed to ask about felonies  in MA (ban the box) and while there is no federal law prohibiting this, the EEOC strongly recommends employers not asking this question on any application.  I agree overcoming criminal history is based on the geographical area, the industry, the sector of employment, and other factors.  The best way to do this is to work in the field and expose yourself to the problem at the ground level where one can experience theory vs practice.  If you have a drug conviction, barring a misdemeanor and having your record expunged, you can forget about working in skilled health care or educational arenas that involve minors along with many professionally credentialed licenses.  However, I would caution those minimizing the impact of drug use and criminal history by lumping possession and class of drugs into one broad statement.

     


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  • 16.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 11:35
      |   view attached
    No replies, thread closed.
    Joe:





  • 17.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 11:54
    No replies, thread closed.

    Michelle

     

    Is there a question/position presented in this attachment?   I believe I had addressed the topic of drugs and drug history, in terms of criminal history/hiring but I can indulge other topics on VR services in the penal industry as I will hold my experience up against anyone or any study.   We can all play devil's advocate and present contradictory studies, which is fine for healthy discourse, but I need to know what I am being asked?

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 18.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 13:01
    No replies, thread closed.
    Thank you for the article, Michelle. The stats on former inmates by race and the percentage of call backs by employers based on race is very telling and confirms my professional experience.
    Best Regards,
    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/ F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell,: (716) 807-6708 

    Sent from my iPhone





  • 19.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 13:28
    No replies, thread closed.
    Michele:

    Yes, that article was interesting in that aspect. The results do show a correlation between race and employment outcomes. 

    As we work with individuals of all races and some with or without disabilities, understanding how various issues impact employment is essential. One common issue I see is a person with a criminal background/history is injured in a manual labor type position, but has a criminal past that might be problematic in less physically demanding position. 

    Addressing these issues in state/federal court cases, as many of us on the listserv do and have done for years, can be delicate and takes time. Experience is definitely important, but also backing up your experience is helpful as well. We all know at least one expert that simply says in their reports, because I said so. I find having at least some outside confirmation to be helpful. Labor market surveys are FABULOUS for the issue of criminal history. A review of licensure statutes/rules for a state are helpful. The resources Amy posted are helpful. Pulling together multiple pieces of data and information is the best way to address any issue. And reviewing multiple data sources and understanding the issues is exceedingly helpful when you get deposed or on the stand. 

    Katherine brings up a fabulous point, in that she doesn't necessarily feel comfortable saying just because I said so (in essence). While, one certainly can do so, it can be more powerful to have data to back up what your experience has shown you. 

    Michelle Aliff Ph.D, CRC, CVE
    Vocational Consultant
    (503) 516-9863 (phone)
    (817) 796-1478 (fax)
    michelle.aliff@gmail.com

    The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information, including patient information protected by federal and state privacy laws. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. 







  • 20.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 13:37
    No replies, thread closed.
    Triangulation of sources before stating your opinion is SO important.

    Renee B. Jubrey, MS
    Certified Vocational Evaluator
    Diplomate/American Board of Vocational Experts
    RBJ Vocational Experts LLC
    Tele (860) 707-2220
    Fax (860) 651-7750




  • 21.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 14:22
    No replies, thread closed.

    Several have interjected race into the cause of criminal behavior which is not accurate.

     

    Poverty, not race, is the direct correlation between crime and being charged/caught performing criminal behavior.  When poverty increases, crime increases, and this has nothing to do with race as a cause.  Racial injustice in regards to the economic systems set forth in prior years certainly created a culture where minorities received less civil liberties, less opportunities (education, health, employment).  However, individuals don't commit and get accused of crime because they are of a particular color, rather, from the economic status they hold.  It's true that many in affluent areas commit non-violent crimes that often go unreported compared to those in more heavily policed neighborhoods.  However, these poor neighborhoods, while an indirect result of race relations in the US, are statistically proven to have much higher VIOLENT crime rates.  There is a subculture developed in any poverty area where the norms cannot be achieved.

     

    If one want to argue that many black Americans have seen a dramatic lack of economic opportunity due to the history of race relations and opportunity in this country then I agree. However, it doesn't change that poverty and economic opportunity, or lack of, is at the core of criminal behavior.  Slavery existed in all nations in less modern times and that was a product of industry not race, as individuals of the same color sold others into slavery.   We look at things in a  vacuum here in the US and try to explain away a topic rather than face the real issues at hand.  Instead of investing in communities and addressing the economic, capitalist structure in the very institutions we operate in we rather look at ways  to profit off of societal ills.  Criminal justice system is not immune to this.

     

    Increase LEGAL opportunity and financial resources and race is eliminated from the equation.  To say there aren't prejudices that exist would just cloud the topic at hand.  Of course there are prejudices in all institutions but increased education, family values, and opportunity which leads to increased income is how we remove the racial disparities in any sector.  When I sit and work with a client, or when I worked as a Job Developer in corrections, I don't sit down and say, "lets see how to address the fact you are not white"  that is preposterous.  We sit down and look at criminal history and go through vocational assessments and career advancement opportunities and face, head on, the issues of the individuals CORI.  I won't get into specifics of my state as each state is different as is each industry in hiring.  However, I will say I learned from working with and meeting and developing relationships with employers and clients and going out into the field not reading from a LABOR MARKET survey which is one of the lesser effective barometers for addressing CORI issues that many ex-offenders face.   Licensures are typically concerned with ethics of the applicant and that is always going to be a challenge for ex-offenders.  It is what it is as they say. 

     

    Lastly, seeing is believing and that is what all experts, in any forensic setting, are expected to incorporate in their testimony.  The expectation is these letters after our name and the academic credentials and the professional experience we have hold water in testifying or report writing.  Otherwise, the commercial of " I stayed at a Holiday Inn Last Nigh" would apply.  It's not simply "because I say so" which I find a rather common argument for those with more academic experience than working with specific populations, on the ground as I say.  Chances are that anyone with this experience can provide data sources or processes they rely on that produce results.  I also find those with real world experience with academic training, which I would never discount,  are less likely  to make blanket statements as they can derive from experience.

     

    I for one was a big fan of watching the Johnny Depp trial and I encourage all to watch the mental health testimonies provided and see how many times they relied on their "because I said so" experience in their chosen profession.

     

    Cheers,
    Joe


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 22.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 19:14
    No replies, thread closed.
    Joe, the "because I say so" thing seems to be rising to a weird crescendo amongst "experts" amongst us. Evidence and standard method be damned with such jokers. Little/no adequate identification of past occupations, radical misclassification of occupations when bothered to be addressed at all, ignorance and or overlooking of the role of aptitudes, ignoring benefit of past education/training and or simple educational/training updates, recommendation of occupations without any or with poor employment projections, no or virtually indecipherable and illogical  transferable skills analysis, no or fuzzy objective permanent work limitations, no testing (even with opportunity for such), etc. etc. Most VE work I see is mediocre to absolute crap and essentially boils down to some sort "clinical experience" at what exactly scares me for clients. The outcome being the person can do nothing or can do anything at all. I anticipate rise in challenges. Any clown could do/say what they do/say..........no letters after name needed. 
    As someone in my seventh decade on earth and fifth decade in this VR/VE thing we do, I and others I know have a prediction. If things do not improve and the "experts" amongst us don't elect to transition to achieving and utilizing actual expertise (or actual experts do not better grease the skids for "expert" exit), this thing we all do will probably not be around to even be done at all in another decade or so.

    ------------------------------
    Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
    Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
    Board Certified Vocational Expert
    Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
    DBA Career Directions Northwest
    4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
    #188
    Portland, Oregon, 97214
    (503)234-4484
    (503)234-4126 fax
    email: sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.com
    website: www.careerdirectionsnw.com
    ------------------------------



  • 23.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 08:54
    No replies, thread closed.

     

    Scott,

     

    I don't know how this conversation turned sideways, as it has, but I don't find further discussion as productive.  I did not bring the "because I said so" argument to the table as it is really a fallacy in professional realms.  If an experience, credentialed professional presents testimony my experience is they typically support this argument with not just their "resume" but with processes and data sources at their disposal.  There certainly are outliers that may dilute the quality of certain professions, such as VE's, but that is not the norm.  Having differing opinions, that don't jive with yours, does not make another VE what you call a "joker".  That is very subjective and, frankly, very insulting to many.

     

     

    On that theme, you have mentioned in this post and others that you see a serious decline in VE work and the industry.  However, I am not sure what your point of reference is, specifically, and that is a blanket statement as VE's work in many arenas.  For example, there has been arguments that many states are hiring VR professionals that are not qualified and that is a by product of not having enough individuals pursuing that particular career or industry.  The issue there is not that credentialed individuals are less qualified, although not unheard of, rather the hiring practices are for less credentialed individuals and thus lowering the standards of that industry.   This is the type of example one should potentially cite, otherwise, you are being very prejudicial when making such widespread statements.

     

    While I have always championed a combination of experience and credentials (those letters we talked about) there is no substitution for experience, as subjective as you'd like to say it is.  Further, I don't believe criticizing others because "back in my day" arguments is helpful to others, especially newer VE's in this field that would benefit from positive reinforcement rather than trivializing their profession.  I liken it to when my father used to tell me that "us kids" don't know what it is to work or what hard times is.  While I respected his view, I knew this was not any more accurate than the old story of how he walked 5 miles to school every day which appeared to grow by a mile each year.

     

    If you'd like to continue your concerns with any of my posts I welcome you to reach out to me personally.  Otherwise, I am not going to turn this into a public forum debate as it is not productive.

     

    Joe Young

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 24.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 10:09
    No replies, thread closed.
    I am frankly appalled by the last post on this topic.  I would like to hear from the IARP Board of Directors regarding this conversation. Any reassurance at all that IARP does not support such a position regarding people of color.

    Best Regards,

    --
    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell:  (716) 807-6708






  • 25.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 11:02
    No replies, thread closed.

    Anyone appalled at discussing causes of crime and theories of racial factors in crime written by an African American scholar is not following the topic.  I am appalled that my posting excerpts from Mr. Sowell's writings and DATA on race and crime is being labeled as being against people of color.  Especially towards someone whom works closely with people of color in his professional and personal life.  Finally, one cannot call or implicate someone as being racist and attempt to censor them with baseless accusations and not face consequences.

     

    I have gone through the correct channels to address any defamatory posts directed at myself and the IARP Board will be made aware.

     

    Joe Young

     

    Joseph Young, MS, CRC, LRC

    Forensic Vocational Counselor

    Joseph Young Consulting

    4209 Taylor Pond Lane

    Bedford, MA 01730

    Phone: 781-363-2689 / Fax: 508-445-8946

    EmailJoseph.Young72@outlook.com

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 26.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 11:56
    No replies, thread closed.
    What consequences are you referring to? Just because a few members disagree with you, you are threatening them with legal action? I find this appalling and disgraceful of your part, and the the IARP Board should be made aware of this.
    Sincerely,
    Pedro M. Román




  • 27.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 12:04
    No replies, thread closed.





  • 28.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 12:16
    No replies, thread closed.
    Thank you Pedro for providing the critique.

    Renee B. Jubrey, MS
    Certified Vocational Evaluator
    Diplomate/American Board of Vocational Experts
    RBJ Vocational Experts LLC
    Tele (860) 707-2220
    Fax (860) 651-7750




  • 29.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-10-2022 08:48
    No replies, thread closed.
    Renee and others, here is another critique of Sowell's writings, posted for the purpose of providing information vital to multicultural counseling awareness, as per Section D2 of the CRC Code of Ethics, and not to continue an argument:

    What's Wrong With Thoma Sowell?

    by Dawson Richard Vosburg

    There is something of an obsession among my fellow evangelicals with an economist named Thomas Sowell. I've seen his name trotted out all over the place - most recently, Thaddeus Williams's book Confronting Injustice without Compromising Truth calls him "the other St. Thomas." Williams repeats a claim I've heard many times: he's never heard anyone engage the arguments of Thomas Sowell (or any number of other Black conservatives). Many of Sowell's avid fans, of which the Internet contains multitudes, make the conjecture that this is because people on the left are afraid of Sowell's no-nonsense, fact-based challenges to their arguments.

    To a degree I also think it is a shame that there are so few counter-arguments to Sowell in public and in accessible language. To be sure, reviews, rebuttals, and critiques of Sowell's work have appeared in academic publications, but these are frequently not within reach to people without academic affiliation, and compared to other conservative favorites such as Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro, relatively few popular critiques of Sowell are to hand. However, I don't share the assessment of Sowell's fans that this is because of his unmatched brilliance. Sowell's arguments are, in the main, sophomoric in construction and ideologically resistant to intervention from the real world. Despite his bluster about Evidence and Facts that purportedly come to knock down the house of left economic and racial ideas, Sowell is unique even among the conservatives he's usually cited with for his immunity to real knowledge and his social-scientific sophistry.

    Given the gargantuan volume of Sowell's popular writing, I'm going to need to focus on the central cluster of claims Sowell is known for. This is essentially aggregated from a variety of Sowell's work, since much of it is repetitive-the primary books I'm addressing are Discrimination and Disparities and Black Rednecks, White Liberals, combined with the vast expanse of Sowell video interviews and clips available on the Internet. I've broken down what I see to be this central cluster into its constitutive claims in order to deal with them in sequence:

    1. Disparities do not prove discrimination, particularly pertaining to Black-White economic inequality in the US.
    2. Black Americans, especially the worst-off living in urban centers, have a "redneck" culture that was handed to them by White southerners via Britain. It is this culture which produces bad behavioral patterns, such as crime and single parenthood.
    3. These behavioral patterns are exacerbated by the interventions of the welfare state.
    4. It is these behavioral patterns from the combination of culture and welfare that lead to Black-White economic inequality.
    5. Black people are blameworthy for their inequality-producing behavior.

    Each of these claims, as well as the argument as a whole, are riddled with problems of argumentative logic and empirical evidence. In many cases even just one of them would tank the entire enterprise; the sum of all of them is utterly damning.

    Discrimination and Disparities

    Sowell is correct that intentional racial discrimination (according to Sowell's classification, Discrimination 1b and 2) at a given juncture - say, racial discrimination by an employer - cannot fully explain Black-White racial disparities in economic outcomes. It does not follow, however, that therefore the remaining racial disparity not explained by acute racial discrimination is not caused by racism in society. Sowell concludes that, for instance, employers and realtors and bankers will make choices about hiring or real estate or loans based on the relevant qualities the individual brings to the table, such as education, credit scores, criminal or eviction history, and so on (this is what he calls Discrimination 1a). People have differences in the quantity and quality of these they can bring to the table, and thus it is perfectly reasonable to find inequalities in economic outcomes.

    What is not answered by this, however, is why these inequalities would be unevenly distributed by race. It's certainly not a realtor's fault that there is a Black-White disparity in credit score, but that difference is not a natural fact of the universe. I and most other social scientists believe that there is inherited inequality from the entire history of American social life that at least in part accounts for why the distribution of these sorts of things are unequal by race. The literature on inherited racial inequalities in sociology, economics, and history is simply massive and cannot be hand-waved away. As it stands, Sowell's argument on this point is hopelessly endogenous.

    This argument is also wrapped up with the claim that any government intervention intended to reduce disparities will result in unintended consequences that will most likely make things worse for the people you're trying to help. This is, in the terms of Albert Hirschman, the "perversity thesis" - the common conservative argument that whatever change you want to implement in society will actually do the opposite of what you want it to do. The reason why this rhetorical move has power is because it seems intuitively true, and sometimes policies do have consequences of this kind. But it simply does not logically follow from the example that some such policies backfired that any such policy inevitably will.

    Black Rednecks

    Where Sowell thinks underlying disparities originate from, rather than inherited inequality, is inherited culture. This argument is perhaps one of the worst ones Sowell makes and betrays an unbelievable historical and social-scientific ineptitude. The basics of his claim is that British Americans introduced "redneck" culture into the South prior to the Civil War, this culture was transmitted to Black people, and that it was brought to Northern cities with Black migrants. This, he says, explains why Black people commit so much crime and have such high rates of poverty, single motherhood, and unemployment.

    This argument is rife with historical and conceptual problems. For instance, if "redneck" culture accompanying Black migrants to Northern cities was the cause of increases in crime in those cities, why did homicide rates increase after the second wave of the Great Migration, but not the first? Why wasn't there a similar racial disparity in crime in the South, where Black people were moving to cities from? Why did crime rates only begin to rise in the 1960s (at the same time low-skilled Black unemployment rates began to soar)? Why did the rise in single parenthood that coincided with the rise in crime and unemployment wait until some 20 years after the second wave of the Great Migration to take effect if we're to believe that this is all caused by "redneck" culture, passed along in the 18th and 19th century and not taking full effect until the second half of the 20th?

    Sowell's theory of culture is also incredibly bizarre. To read his argument, you would imagine culture to be a free-floating thing, unaffected by material circumstance, passed unilaterally from one group to another and retained, unchanged, until you strip it off and put on a new one. Culture does not work that way. At the very least, culture adapts to material circumstance, especially culture regarding how one should behave in order to be successful in life. If your group is presented with a series of poor economic chances in historical succession culminating with the segregation into neighborhoods of concentrated unemployment following de-industrialization, it would be perfectly rational that your group would develop a culture adapted to that economic environment. There is little reason to believe Sowell's theory of unchanged cultural traits passing unilaterally to a population, while the theory of cultural adaptation to material circumstances has much to recommend it given the actual historical record.

    The Welfare State

    I've previously written an entire post about this argument of Sowell's - that the welfare state helped create the behavioral pathologies that maintain Black-White inequality. There simply is not a lot of evidence for this, and even where it may have merit - a welfare cliff when you get married is bad - it cannot go the whole way to explaining the persistence of these disparities. On the other hand, the historical record of mass Black migration to Northern cities followed by housing discrimination and de-industrialization has immense explanatory power here, and Sowell basically doesn't acknowledge that possibility.

    I want to briefly point out that this is exactly the sort of adaptive theory of culture and behavior that Sowell ignores when it's not convenient to his underlying ideological assumptions. Why would it be that Black culture would adapt to the material conditions of the welfare state but not the material conditions of, say, housing discrimination and deindustrialization leading to unemployment? The rational conclusion is that Sowell wants to downplay the history of material deprivation and inequality that led to the behaviors he wants to condemn and magnify the role welfare had to play in those behaviors because he has an ideological predisposition to oppose welfare, being a Chicago-school libertarian economist.

    Culture, Behavior, and Inequality

    One of the big payoffs to this entire line of Sowell's argument is that culture and behavior are the cause for the continuation of Black-White disparities in economic outcomes. Setting aside the continuing problem Sowell has with endogeneity (how do we determine that differences in culture and behavior are not shaped by present and past discrimination?), Sowell also has a major empirical obstacle with this argument. The best recent scholarship on poverty has adopted a new framework called the "prevalences and penalties" framework that tackles the question of whether the prevalence of behaviors considered to be poverty risks (the four commonly agreed on are single motherhood, young head of household, unemployed head of household, and below-high school education) actually explain the level of poverty in society. Sociologists David Brady, Ryan Finnigan, and Sabine Hübgen found that bringing single motherhood to zero would only result in a dip of US poverty of 1.3 percentage points. Even worse, this is only because the US has one of the highest penalties for single motherhood among rich democracies. In some countries, due to their better-developed welfare states, a single-mother household is no more likely to be poor than other households. A recent talk by David Brady cites from two pre-publication papers which I do not have permission to cite, but which both go into more specifics about the effect reducing single motherhood would have on racial disparities in poverty - and the findings are not promising for Sowell's thesis.

    This brings us to one of the big problems with cultural and behavioral explanations of economic inequality. Someone's culture and behavior is only one side of the transaction; the distributive institutions of a society are the other. A behavior is only a risk for poverty if the distributive institutions of a society make it so. Imagine a teacher is giving an exam and has decided to grade on a curve. She already knows exactly what proportion of the class will get a given letter grade. That's the distributive institution. The students study to varying degrees, some studying quite hard and others slacking off. A social scientist could observe the studying behaviors of each student and then look at who received what grade as a result. They would most likely find that the students that worked most diligently got the best grades and the students who slacked off got the worst grades. But it would be completely incorrect to conclude that how much the students studied determined what grade they received. The teacher set up a distributive institution such that even if everyone behaved perfectly (studied for the test), everyone would still not receive an A.

    Let's think of the real-world example of unemployment and health insurance. Unemployment is a big risk for being uninsured in the United States because we primarily distribute health insurance through employers. However, in (for instance) the UK, Canada, or Finland, there is no relationship between unemployment and health insurance because they distribute health insurance to everyone. This is also why there are countries where single motherhood is not a significant risk for poverty: their welfare states provide much more comprehensive family benefits. We have chosen to structure our distributive institutions such that unemployment, low education, and single parenthood are risks for poverty - and such that even if no one in our society had any of these risks, we would still have high poverty and racial inequalities in poverty. Even if Sowell's arguments had survived to this point, this simple descriptive reality would render them entirely moot.

    Black Blameworthiness for Inequality

    We finally come to the last piece of Sowell's argument: the normative claim that Black people are at least in part (to Sowell's mind, in large part) to blame for their economic position in society by nature of their inequality-producing behavior. The fact that very little poverty can be explained by the typical poverty risk behaviors can lead us to the conclusion that even if we conceded this point, the amount of Black-White economic inequality in poverty that can reasonably be explained by the behavior of Black people is quite a lot smaller than Sowell imagines. But we do not have to concede the point of Black blameworthiness, either. Here I commend Adaner Usmani's debate with Glenn Loury on the subject of the persistence of racial inequality and summarize the crux of Usmani's case against Black blameworthiness for Black-White economic inequality. If we take Sowell's argument to be the case - that Black culture produces behaviors that further their disadvantaged economic position - this is not something created by any individual Black American, but rather inherited as a set of cultural circumstances. Can they be blamed for acting in a way that gains them what anyone is looking for - social acceptance and getting their needs met - within that cultural setting? Borrowing from philosophers Christopher Lewis and Julia Markovits, Usmani argues that a person of average willpower would, in aggregate, behave the same given that cultural environment as the average Black person. To say otherwise is, ultimately, to claim that Black people as a whole have behaved more poorly given their inherited culture than other people would. To make such a move would be to assign an essential racial inferiority to Black people. This is only a brief and thus truncated summation of Usmani's entire subtle and compelling argument, and I certainly recommend watching the entire debate.

    I believe this claim of the blameworthiness of Black people for their economic position is why many of Sowell's critics call him a racist. It is not always a knee-jerk reaction to disagreement, but is rather based on the implicit logic of saying Black people are blameworthy for their own circumstances. There is a microscopically thin line between saying that Black people are inherently inferior and are thus blameworthy for their circumstances and saying Black people have a bad culture and are thus blameworthy for their circumstances. Sowell tries to get around this by saying that they received but did not create "redneck" culture, but even if they had received that culture from other people, the argument in the paragraph above would completely pertain. I don't think Sowell intends to espouse racist views, but I don't think it is mere hysteria that brings people to call Sowell a racist, even if that's not what I would say.

    Why Do People Love Thomas Sowell?

    Thomas Sowell, I think it is fair to say, is first and foremost a pundit. He has made his career less on scholarly arguments accountable to the rigorous critique of his peers and more on quotable quips, book-length tirades, and debate clap lines for the adulation of his libertarian fans and conservative think tank colleagues. Even though they are hollow when you knock on them, Sowell presents his arguments with confidence and frames the story as being one of an incompetent, mean-spirited economic left against a sensible, evidence-based economic right. When that is a story you already believe, Sowell's arguments appear compelling, and his demeanor is confident and charismatic. But ultimately, Sowell is better at rhetorical flourish than thoughtful empirical analysis or philosophical consistency. I worry that too many Christians assume with Sowell that those on the left are simply ignorant and naive or resentful, even while failing to recognize the devastating problems with every part of Sowell's program.

    Best Regards, 

    --
    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell:  (716) 807-6708






  • 30.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-10-2022 10:28
    No replies, thread closed.

    As relates to this forum, it seems to me essential when citing an author or his/her writings as the basis for an opinion, that one understand the degree to which that author or his/her writings are representative of the generally held opinions or not.  In Sowell's case, I believe that the parts of both the African-American community and the academic community that views Sowell's viewpoints as on target is, at best, extremely small.

     

    -Steve Bast, MHS, CVE, CDMS, FVE, CCM, IPEC, ABVE/F, EA

    Westwind Consulting, Inc.

     

     






  • 31.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-10-2022 21:09
    No replies, thread closed.

    Steve, I am curious as to what "generally held opinions" you are referring to and in what context?  I would argue that if you look at large scale examples, look no further than our recent political climate in where there has been a clear divide in voters more than in years past.  I will extrapolate the pollical agenda policies of the Democrats vs Republicans and simply point out that approximately 81mm voters were in favor of one candidate while 74mm were in favor of the other.  The two sides could not have been any further apart in policy and political viewpoints.  Therefore, is the minority viewpoints to be discounted?  I mention this very blanket example as proof your argument, while your right, does not encourage discussion but rather look to suppress it.  Also, I do not see any such industry polls to support your claim that Mr. Sowell's viewpoints are of a minority unless your view would be to equate that 81mm voters should discount the other 74mm voters views?

     

    In regard to Mr. Sowell, he is a NY Times best selling author of over 45 books, whom graduated from Harvard University, Columbia University, and earned his PhD from University of Chicago.  He is a former Marine and senior fellow at the Hoover Institute (affiliated with Stanford University) which has such notable alumni as Henry Kissinger and former Sec of State, Condolezza Rice.  You don't obtain and maintain that type of resume without having credibility and opinions that are supported by DATA.

     

    In regards to another poster that cited author Dawson Vosburg's critique of Mr. Sowell I will say this.  Mr. Vosburg is a 28yr old Phd STUDENT whose claim to fame is writing Fiction for teenagers.  I don't doubt Mr. Vosburg's entitlement to his opinions but should we be quoting this author, whose material was part of some random internet blog, opinion piece critiquing an accomplished scholar, Mr. Sowell.  I found the article lacking any reals facts and certainly not representative of a scholarly publication/critique.  I would dare say that one could simply find similar opinions on Twitter or FB.

     

    Lastly, as some have found issue with my providing data on a credentialed economic and racial historian, an African American who experienced the civil rights era himself, firsthand, I will point out that his material is relevant to the forensic topic that was originally presented.  And as some have hand picked parts of the CRC code of ethics I will include the below from CRCC:

     

    E.1. Relationships with Colleagues, Employers, and Employees a. Different Professional Approaches. Rehabilitation counselors are respectful of approaches that are grounded in theory and/or have an empirical or scientific foundation but may differ from their own. Rehabilitation counselors acknowledge the expertise of other professional groups and are respectful of their practices.

     

    Good Evening.

     


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  • 32.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-10-2022 11:43
    No replies, thread closed.
    VERY informative Michele. Thank You!

    Renee B. Jubrey, MS
    Certified Vocational Evaluator
    Diplomate/American Board of Vocational Experts
    RBJ Vocational Experts LLC
    Tele (860) 707-2220
    Fax (860) 651-7750




  • 33.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-10-2022 13:16
    No replies, thread closed.

    Thank you Michelle. I thoroughly enjoyed this contribution. 

     

    The issue of race is complex and it permeates our work.  I have gone to bat for African American and Filipino clients who were receiving training in and among Spanish speaking clients.  I was recently asked in a deposition why I did not use race in my worklife expectancy assessment as it would purportedly show that the African American evaluee would have a lower labor force participation.  By trying to paint me as a maximizing damages hired gun, the asking attorney showed blatant and obvious racism – at least to me.  My response?  It is against the law in California to use statistics that discriminate base on gender, race, religious or sexual orientation (hey, let's do worklife expectancy for gay people!).  What is even more sad is that the attorney was not aware of this law.

     

    Going back to the original post and the context that it is socioeconomic status, not race, that wreaks havoc with people's employment once they enter our criminal justice system, I largely agree with that premise; but as Michele pointed out, there is an overrepresentation of minorities in that population and that is not accidental – it is systemic.  Socioeconomics have a lot to do with wealth and ownership of property and property rights and fairness in economic exchanges, much of which did not exist for hundreds of years in this country, and whose cumulative effects we can plainly see today.  That is not to say that poor whites do not suffer the consequences of a criminal history, because they do.

     

    If people believe (like the current Supreme Court) that we live in a race blind Amercia, I have news for them: that and $3.95 will buy you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. I recently read the 1619 Project.  It was an eye opener for me and I highly recommend it.  It should be mandatory reading in this county.

     

    Best,

     

    Enrique N. Vega, MS, CDMS

    Access Employment Network

    20700 Ventura Blvd., Ste. 220

    Woodland Hills, CA 91364

    (818) 346-3300 Ph.

    (818) 346-3322 Fx.

    Email: enrique@accesswork.net

     






  • 34.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-10-2022 22:16
    No replies, thread closed.

    Enrique,  the initial post was about commenting on criminal history and addressing this barrier in employment.  The post turned when a poster interjected race as the sole cause of criminal behavior.  I debunked this as economics are at the root cause of criminal behavior whereas race is more of a statistical likelihood of crime, influenced by lack of resources and development of a subculture.  I provided an author that has written exclusively on this topic and has provided data in all of his research to support his publications.  Further, I have resided within range of geographical areas where Irish and Italian American, whites living in urban areas, well below the poverty line face similar criminal behavior as minorities living within the same economically depressed areas.  This lived experience, along with working behind the wall and in the courthouses with black and Hispanic American's being my primary clientele, are just as relevant and no different than you or anyone else experience.

     

    Also, I would not doubt the veracity of your post simply because "you say so" as others have alluded to .  And I don't need to find a random blog post or do a lengthy Google search to locate scholarly articles that can provide myself with an opinion.  Rather, I would respect your position because of your standing in this professional community and weighing my professional experience and judgement vs what is being presented.

     

    The issue here and with the original post going awry is that race, as usual, was interjected into a topic simply as a blanket statement.  I cannot speak to reasons as why this was done as I believe we, as a culturally diverse rehabilitation community, respect individuals of all races, creeds, gender, religion, and certainly empathize with disadvantaged populations.  I would not, and did not, denounce the inequities within the US justice system, in regards to overrepresentation of minorities in the CJ system and, moreso, the lower economic ladder in society.  However, those looking to interject race into every topic simply ignores the underlying reasons why things are occurring.  Simply pointing to history and blaming a system (economic market) that is color blind is not going to advance civil rights, rather, it simply victimizes one side and vilifies another, both of whom do not resonate with a past time.  Sometimes these arguments read like think tanks that work for billion dollar corporations whom have to decide if it's in the best interest of the corporation to release data that indicates a potential cure vs data that presents treatment.  The ethical answer vs the financial incentive are at odds in this situation.  We, as a rehabilitation community, should not be faced with personal agendas or take offense by others whom may have more expertise in a specific area than others. 

     

    Lastly, as I don't want to stay from the forensic part of this initial post any more than what has occurred, I will not delve into the 1619 Project other than to say I have three children in our academic community, one in college.  The negative effects of this NY Times project (as it is merely a theory presented by a far left, NY Times reporter) have been cited and debunked as propaganda throughout by many academic and historical scholars.   I have seen the negative, divisive nature of these types of attempts to villainize others from a prior historical periods borne out of political motives that look to divide rather than unite.

     

    Cheers,

    Joe

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 35.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-11-2022 09:17
    No replies, thread closed.
    Thank you Enrique, and for information on 1619 Project. I have started to look at the original New York Times article which led to the book, and will be ordering a copy through Amazon (I'm a frequent flyer, the delivery guy brings treats for our Golden Retriever...)  The quotes are amazing. I feel sorry for its author, even though she has won awards for her writing, because of what she now faces.  The following in an excerpt of her interview with NPR:

    "As a child, journalist Nikole Hannah-Jones didn't hear much in school about the role of Black people in U.S. history. "Black people are largely treated as an asterisk in the American story," she says.

    But Hannah-Jones' awareness changed in high school when she signed up for a Black studies elective. Among the things she learned was the date 1619, significant because it's the year that the White Lion, the first ship carrying enslaved Africans, arrived in the British colony of Virginia - one year before the Mayflower landed at Plymouth Rock.

    "Every American child learns about the Mayflower, but virtually no American child learned about the White Lion," Hannah-Jones says. The omission, she says, is "symbolic of how history is shaped by people who decide what's important and what's not. And that erasure is also a powerful statement."

    As editor of the New York Times1619 Project, Hannah-Jones fought against that erasure. Originally published in 2019 as a special issue of The New York Times Magazine, the project reframed the American story through the lens of slavery. Hannah-Jones was awarded a Pulitzer Prize for her introductory essay. Now, the new book, The 1619 Project: A New Origin Story, expands upon that initial initiative.

    "The project argues that slavery is a foundational American institution," she says. "It is one of the oldest American institutions, and that the legacy of the first 250 years of slavery still, of course, permeates throughout society in a variety of ways."

    Students across the country have embraced the ideas contained in the work. But there's also been a backlash by conservatives who have vowed to keep the 1619 Project out of classrooms - including threats that have been made against her personally.

    "People who send threats, people who make threats, what they're really trying to do is silence you," she says. But, she adds, "This is my mission. And so nothing will distract me from that, and I just can't go around worried about what might happen. I just have to do my job."

    Quote ended, this is Michele again.  I am interested in anything that helps me to understand the worldview of people of color, because that's part of MY job.  Again, thank you Enrique.

    Best Regards,

    --
    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell:  (716) 807-6708






  • 36.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-11-2022 09:41
    No replies, thread closed.
    "History belongs to the victors."
    I find here strong insight into the nature of humans as we continue to populate the planet, tell the story of our tribe, perpetuate our values, and yearn to propel "all things us" into the future of those to follow.  Only by understanding ourselves can and will we make enlightened choices in tirelessly creating a better world.  "Peace on earth" is so much more than a mere seasonal notion that makes us feel good and self-righteous for a couple of weeks each year.

    ------------------------------
    Bob Paré, MS, CRC, LRC, CDMS, FVE, ABVE/D
    rpare@consultativerehab.com
    Mt. Laurel, NJ. Tel: 609-531-2529
    ------------------------------



  • 37.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-11-2022 11:33
    No replies, thread closed.

    So beautifully stated, as per your usual, Bob.  Simply put, history is not there for us to like or dislike, it is there for us to learn. If it offends you, hopefully you will acknowledge it and be less likely to repeat it.  It is not ours to erase.  It belongs to all of us.

     






  • 38.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-11-2022 17:08
    No replies, thread closed.
    Amen, Bob

    History ought to make us squirm (if it's at all accurate). I grew up reading biographies in my public schools. Never much cared for non-fiction. Countless books about old dead white dudes. About the only things I recall seeing or being taught about black history was something about George Washington Carver and various peanut uses?  I still read a lot about native NW tribes. But back in school all I recall hearing was something about Thanksgiving parties and poor old Custer getting creamed. Goofy as heck. Even as a kid in a semi- affluent neighborhood (of one of the very whitest cities in the US) the whole thing smelled funny to me, like they were keeping stuff from kids like me. Seems they still do. 

    Sowell has been all over you-tube for many years (and apparently does not like things like Medicare, Social Security or those pesky Community Colleges). You will find him along with all sorts of similar darlings, Jordan Peterson, and lots of white men, whining on and on that women are too dang picky and way too successful, ruing demise of "family values". Maybe it's because they don't want to hang with angry crackpots. Interesting to read. It's like my wife asking me why I switch over to Fox at commercials. It is important to hear and read more than only that with which you agree.

    The rise in far-right extremism in the US and overseas all is at core, IMO obviously fear stoked intolerance and racism. The elephant in the room. It seems to be primarily the province of old angry white guys from my perspective. The majority race well realizes the demographics are radically changing and one segment of that fading majority find that really scary. Such is fomenting hair-brained junk like suddenly rushing to buy up all arms, wanting to dress up in funny paramilitary outfits carrying assault weapons, threatening to hang the VP and maybe executing good old Doc Fauci to boot. Election denialism by various grifter cry baby losers and threatening lives of school board members and election workers is not patriotic, not conservative. But heck, the constitution is optional to some, as apparently is science, etc. Parallels to Germany after WWI are countless as can be understood with Rachel Maddow's Ultra podcast, fascinating.

    It all is a non-viable orientation when it comes to winning elections as we have all just witnessed. But just when I think I see a glimmer of  movement back toward moderation and reasonable compromise up pops what is now is now (allegedly) that single most important thing ​in DC; what the heck is on Hunter Biden's laptop anyway? Perhaps there may be some news about Bengazi or pizza-gate, or birth certificates on that thing too. My prayer for 2023 is that moderates again prevail and that, like in times past there could be hawks and doves on both sides, debates and fair compromises with no side ever getting all that they want as no side ever should.

    ------------------------------
    Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
    Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
    Board Certified Vocational Expert
    Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
    DBA Career Directions Northwest
    4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
    #188
    Portland, Oregon, 97214
    (503)234-4484
    (503)234-4126 fax
    email: sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.com
    website: www.careerdirectionsnw.com
    ------------------------------



  • 39.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-12-2022 12:09
    No replies, thread closed.

     

    Since I am the one whom introduced my following of Mr. Sowell and his teachings have seemingly ruffled some feathers.  I would ask those that provide rebuffs of Mr. Sowell do so with objective, empirically backed literature by those whom may be in the field of addressing the topic I introduced Mr. Sowell's publishing for.  That would be crime and economics, in relation to crime among minority populations (of which he is a member of).  As I like to research any topics I dare post on a professional forum to ensure it does contain credibility I did review the article by Mr. Vosburg.  This is what I found out.

     

    Mr. Vosburg is a 28yr old, PhD STUDENT at Ohio State who's main, professional contributions appear to be the author of Teenager Fiction, "Double Life" by Vosburg, Dawson and cofounding the Evangelical Labor Institute, an organization that support biblical economics.  Further, the critique provided read more like a blog post as it was full of personal insights, rather than empirical data, and it was posted on a website named Medium which is defined as below (Wiki):

     

    Medium is an American online publishing platform developed by Evan Williams and launched in August 2012. It is owned by A Medium Corporation.[2] The platform is an example of social journalism, having a hybrid collection of amateur and professional people and publications, or exclusive blogs or publishers on Medium,[3] and is regularly regarded as a blog host.

    Williams, previously co-founder of Blogger and Twitter,[4] initially developed Medium as a means to publish writings and documents longer than Twitter's 140-character (now 280-character) maximum.

     

    While I respect other members opinions, in regards to not agreeing with some of the publications of a Best Selling, African American, senior fellow author I would ask that we respect the nature of this forum and provide information to credible and credentialed professionals in the field we are practicing.  Otherwise, this professional forum will simply be flooded by a plethora of blog type posts and turn into a version of Twitter.

     

    On that note, I believe this topic has gone off the rails and welcome anyone to email me privately if they want to debate my views that Mr. Sowell has much to offer in the larger field of sociology and criminal justice/social constructs.

     

    Joe Young

     


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     






  • 40.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 09:44
      |   view attached
    No replies, thread closed.

    As others are surely to comment on my prior post I wanted to follow up with a concluding post.  As I have found, and unfortunate as it is in a professional forum, there are some IARP colleagues that appear to have taken up a keen interest in following my posts and opinions on many topics.  I have found this problematic as rather than addressing the topic at hand the posts turn personal and usually after offering little in the way of substance towards the original posts.  I will not be deterred from posting regardless of these detractors.  I don't know the motives but I have made a point of keeping track of such incidents for ethical implications.

     

    In regards to the post on criminal history, posed by Katherine, I have reached out to her privately and offered to answer any questions on the topic.  Unfortunately, Katherine's original post was responded to with a blanket email response that seemed to simply interject race into the topic of criminal history and behavior.  I found issue with that statement and stand by that.  As others have seemed to desire, a providing of some data sources and such empirical data would help validate my point that race is not the CAUSE of criminal behavior and is really just a convenient myth when many are presented with ways to address crime in America.

     

    Hence, I am attaching some resources that I strongly recommend my fellow professionals to review and make their own conclusions.  I will state that Mr. Thomas Sowell is one of the most unique and educated individuals in recent history that provides in depth, factual and common sense approaches to race and politics in America.  If you have not read his material on race in this country then I suggest that is equivalent to learning to navigate the sea without a compass.

     

    Mr. Sowell cites specific studies significant occurrences I would highlight as a great example of why economics, not race, is the most influencing factor in crime in America.  Mr. Sowell cites in his book, Intellectuals and Race some very interesting positions supported by references in his book as well.  I have included some excerpts from that book but strongly encourage others to read this book.  Mr. Sowell has also published other material, most notably Black Rednecks and White Liberals, on race in America and myths associated with race.

     

    One very interesting factoid that Mr. Sowell has resonated within the intellectual community regarding race involves crime rates.  I have included a link (at bottom) to the below excerpt which I find very relevant to the issue raised about race and crime and worth posting in this thread.

     

    Attempts to automatically depict whatever social problems exist in ghetto communities as being caused by the sins or negligence of whites, whether racism in general or a "legacy of slavery" in particular. Like most emotionally powerful visions, it is seldom, if ever, subjected to the test of evidence.

    The "legacy of slavery" argument is not just an excuse for inexcusable behavior in the ghettos. In a larger sense, it is an evasion of responsibility for the disastrous consequences of the prevailing social vision of our times, and the political policies based on that vision, over the past half century.

    Anyone who is serious about evidence need only compare black communities as they evolved in the first 100 years after slavery with black communities as they evolved in the first 50 years after the explosive growth of the welfare state, beginning in the 1960s.

    You would be hard-pressed to find as many ghetto riots prior to the 1960s as we have seen just in the past year, much less in the 50 years since a wave of such riots swept across the country in 1965.

    We are told that such riots are a result of black poverty and white racism. But in fact -- for those who still have some respect for facts -- black poverty was far worse, and white racism was far worse, prior to 1960. But violent crime within black ghettos was far less.

    Murder rates among black males were going down -- repeat, DOWN -- during the much lamented 1950s, while it went up after the much celebrated 1960s, reaching levels more than double what they had been before.

    Most black children were raised in two-parent families prior to the 1960s. But today the great majority of black children are raised in one-parent families. *Economic factors including Capitalism and Welfare State culture.

    Such trends are not unique to blacks, nor even to the United States.

    The welfare state has led to remarkably similar trends among the white underclass in England over the same period.

    Just read "Life at the Bottom," by Theodore Dalrymple, a British physician who worked in a hospital in a white slum neighborhood.

    You cannot take any people, of any color, and exempt them from the requirements of civilization -- including work, behavioral standards, personal responsibility and all the other basic things that the clever intelligentsia disdain -- without ruinous consequences to them and to society at large.

     

    Blame the welfare state, not racism, for poor blacks' problems: Thomas Sowell - pennlive.com

     

    Cheers,

    Joe Young


    Confidentiality Notice:  The information in this email may be confidential. This email is intended to be reviewed only by the individual or organization named above. If you are not the intended recipient(s), you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, or copying of this email or the information contained herein and its attachments, if any, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this email in error, please notify the sender immediately via return email and delete this email from your system.

     




    Attachment(s)



  • 41.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 13:23
    No replies, thread closed.
    Michelle, thank you for reminding us of that article. I am not understanding why Joe appears to think that you need to also pose some sort of question with it or, why such a question, if posed ought to be directed at him. It is fine to post information to the forum sans any sort of question if such can be of use to others. 


    ------------------------------
    Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
    Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
    Board Certified Vocational Expert
    Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
    DBA Career Directions Northwest
    4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
    #188
    Portland, Oregon, 97214
    (503)234-4484
    (503)234-4126 fax
    email: sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.com
    website: www.careerdirectionsnw.com
    ------------------------------



  • 42.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 19:03
    No replies, thread closed.
    Katherine

    I am not sure what your specific question is:
    • Resources to help individuals with criminal histories in obtaining employment?
    • The impact a criminal background has on employability?
    • Reporting a criminal background in forensic vocational reports?

    Each question has a different set of resources, below are some resources in for ex-offenders and employers in hiring individuals with criminal histories:
    EEOC Guidance on Hiring Individuals with criminal backgrounds https://wdr.doleta.gov/directives/attach/TEGL/TEGL_31_11_att5.pdf 

    USDOL Job Search Help for Ex-Offenders  https://www.careeronestop.org/ExOffender/default.aspx?frd=true

    What You Should Know: The EEOC and Arrest and Conviction Records: https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/what-you-should-know-eeoc-and-arrest-and-conviction-records

    US DOL Employment Resources for Ex-offenders https://www.dol.gov/agencies/eta/reentry/resources 

    EEOC Enforcement Guidance on the Consideration of Arrest and Conviction Records in Employment Decisions Under Title VII: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/arrest_conviction.cfm

    EEOC Questions and Answers About the EEOC's Enforcement Guidance on the Consideration of Arrest and Conviction Records in Employment Decisions Under Title VII: http://www.eeoc.gov/laws/guidance/qa_arrest_conviction.cfm


    What employers can ask on a job application varies by state. In MA it used to be that you could only ask about a misdemeanor conviction within the past 5 years and a felony conviction within 10 years.  In 2018 this law was updated so that the disclosure of misdemeanor convictions (or completion of incarceration) was  reduced to three years, felony to 7 years and  applicants cannot be asked about a criminal record that has been sealed or expunged. Additionally the state criminal records database was updated. 

    So although employers (in MA) cannot ask about criminal histories on an initial application, they can ask about it in the hiring process within the timeframes above, can ask the employee to sign a release for a background check and criminal record check. Sometimes the background checks are done by outside agencies who are not held to the same requirements as a potential employer and in many states corrections records include arrests and convictions.

    So although the federal EEOC guidelines state you cannot use a corrections history in a discriminatory manor, there are lots of grey areas in the law and the burden is on the employee to demonstrate they have been discriminated against. An employer can ask about an applicants correction history  but they have to be consistent in how they ask, they may get a corrections report from the state that lists items they can't technically consider but human nature being what it is, it would be hard for them to "unknow it", an outside background check company may include item in a report under the umbrella that the applicant consented to a full background check and even in our low unemployment economy an employer may still consider a corrections history negatively.

    I had a research grant working working with ex-offenders with disabilities on employment and housing and although individuals with the multifactor barriers of disability and a corrections history (and for 69% substance abuse also) I surprised at the number of employers, many whom were ex-offenders themselves, who would make accommodations and hire individuals. They were definitely concentrated in construction, food service, hospitality and warehousing but there was a community of ex-offenders that hired other ex-offenders. 

    Also there are some industries-working with children, vulnerable populations, in security, financial services and government where some offenses are prohibited from employment and some where bonding is required. 




    ------------------------------
    Amy Vercillo
    Rehabilitation and Re-Employment
    Boston, MA
    ------------------------------



  • 43.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 19:12
    No replies, thread closed.
    Thank you for these resources, Amy!
    Best,
    Michele Erbacher, MS, CRC, ABVE/F
    Erbacher Rehabilitation & Consulting
    Cell: (716) 807-6708

    Sent from my iPhone




  • 44.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 00:25
    No replies, thread closed.
    Hello Amy,

    This is super helpful; thanks so much for taking the time to attach all of these resources!! I have been in placement for 17 years, and love it! I was actually fortunate enough to work as an employment specialist in a mental health court, so every client I worked with had a criminal history and disability. I am actually very comfortable working with individuals with criminal history to find employment. Of course the employability depends on the charge, how recent the charge was, if there were multiple charges, what field the person is interested in pursuing ect. However, I have found that there are a lot of successful strategies to use to help individuals with criminal history become employed. Through my experience, I have found that criminal history is less of a big deal then I had anticipated when I started in this field. That seems to be even more true now with this labor shortage.

    My question, which I think was poorly stated, so my apologies on that, was more in regards to trying to find out if there are any sources that back up the experiences I have had working with individuals with criminal history in job placement. Being new to doing vocational assessments in forensic settings, I was uncertain if a judge or attorney would see my experience as valid enough of a reason for my opinions vs. having some sort of stat/source to back up my opinion. However, the community of folks on here have been very helpful with answering this question and providing resources. In addition, some have reached out sharing that clinical judgement is considered valid, and it was super helpful to hear that,too. Truly, thanks everyone for your time! This is definitely a helpful resource for a newcomer! Thanks again, Amy, for spending the time to attach all of these resources!

    Thanks, 
    Kate

    --

    Kate Kirchner, MS, CRC 
    Owner/Employment Specialist
    Aspire Vocational Services, LLC
    (608) 628-5370

    " Achieving Aspirations Through Employment"


    This message, or attachments to this message may contain confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient of this message, please do not review or disseminate information in the message or attachments,and return this message, along with any attachments, to the sender.

     






  • 45.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-06-2022 13:01
    No replies, thread closed.
    While the article at the link below does not specifically address Katherine's questions, I think it is worth a read because it touches on the concepts expressed or alluded to in this thread. I know the title caught my attention.

    Yen J, Durrheim K, Tafarodi RW. 'I'm happy to own my implicit biases': Public encounters with the implicit association test. Br J Soc Psychol. 2018 Jul;57(3):505-523. doi: 10.1111/bjso.12245. Epub 2018 Feb 16. PMID: 29453778.

    https://tafarodi.psych.utoronto.ca/Papers/BJSP2018.pdf


    ------------------------------
    Stella Frank
    Vocational, Disability & Career Consultant
    sdoercrc@gmail.com
    Stillwater, ME United States
    ------------------------------



  • 46.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-07-2022 08:39
    No replies, thread closed.
    Good luck, Katherine, and yes, thanks to Amy!

    ------------------------------
    Bob Paré, MS, CRC, LRC, CDMS, FVE, ABVE/D
    rpare@consultativerehab.com
    Mt. Laurel, NJ. Tel: 609-531-2529
    ------------------------------



  • 47.  RE: assessing the impact of criminal hx

    Posted 12-05-2022 19:11
    No replies, thread closed.
    Information gained via job development and LMS is valuable and not hearsay. Collection of such information from employers is an essential function and what RCs and VEs historically do. So, info received from employers as to impact of felony conviction Hx in relation to access to specific occupations is very relevant. You would or would not propose a VR training or placement plan on basis of such information gained. As in " If this gentleman was my VR client, I would not support a plan for training or job search in relation to occupations such as X, Y, Z based upon labor market research performed. Vocational prognosis would be improbable". The RC or VE (assuming VE has requisite quality/quantity RC experience and is not an outlier faux VE) is the expert in access/feasibility.  I don't see misdemeanor Hx as being of much relevance. 

    Most everyone knows a friend, neighbor or family member with felony conviction relative to opiates (thanks to the American Pharmaceutical Industry). The vast percentage of felony convictions in US relate to drugs. As such I see a softening with employers about impact of conviction. It affects everyone. What used to be a simple "no" is increasingly a "will consider". Since we are at 50 year historically low rates of unemployment, passing by "full employment", employers of necessity must hire people they may not have a few years ago, people with various traditional barriers. Go to a Home Depot and have a look. We'll see if that changes in what may be a very mild recession in 2023 and jobs numbers maybe not quite so strong. With gas and food prices going down, wages going up and LFP rates increasing I don't see a 1-2 Q "mild recession" as changing stuff much

    ------------------------------
    Scott T. Stipe, MA, CRC, CDMS, IPEC, D/ABVE
    Certified Rehabilitation Counselor
    Board Certified Vocational Expert
    Scott Stipe & Associates, Inc.
    DBA Career Directions Northwest
    4110 SE Hawthorne Blvd
    #188
    Portland, Oregon, 97214
    (503)234-4484
    (503)234-4126 fax
    email: sstipe@careerdirectionsnw.com
    website: www.careerdirectionsnw.com
    ------------------------------